Penalty Mitigation in the Immigration Reform Bill [White House Spokesman Responds: Post #53]

Free Republic ^ | 6-13-2007 | philman_36

[philman_36]

This morning on Fox and Friends there was made mention that much stricter fines are in the immigration reform bill. While this is true many folks may not know about a few words that follow the language about the tougher fines. Those words make a travesty of any "fines" as they can be waved and the employer could walk away owing nothing in penalties.

Here are the words I've got a problem with...

(D) The Secretary is authorized to reduce or mitigate penalties imposed upon employers, based upon factors including, but not limited to, the employer's hiring volume, compliance history, good-faith implementation of a compliance program, participation in temporary worker program, and voluntary disclosure of violations of this subsection to the Secretary.

So while we're being told that "the penalties are tougher" we aren't being told that under some circumstances employers can face reduced or even no fine whatsoever.
At this point of time in our history America can't afford our officials not being completely truthful to us and not stating that the possibility exists for employers to potentially be let off the hook completely is simply unacceptable.

[BreezyDog]

That response is why I have only supported you pinheads with these for the past two years: BUILD THE FENCE!!

[Principled]

First, put enforcement components in a bill alone. Pass it. Use law to enforce it.

That's what everyone knows won't happen - enforcement of anything in your bill. Really, why would we think anything would be enforced? Look at history and ask, why would anyone think any enforcement will take place? Sheesh.

Who cares what maximum penalties there are if they may or may not be enforced at the discretion of an unelected DC bureaucrat? Get real. Remember we don't trust you - and enforcement is 99% of it to us. We think you're just saying things to assuage your base. We're not that dumb. Seems you are though.

If, after passing an enforcement only bill, we believe that your enforcement efforts are protecting our money, neighborhoods, health and way of life (schools, hospitals, insurance rates, crime, tuberculosis, etc) then you may have a chance at a temp worker's program. I promise you that this will not work the way you're trying to do it. I could go on about calling your supporters bigots and the such instead of telling why we're wrong in not trusting you.

You have to make it known that you are going to protect us. We don't believe you will.

Maybe that's the problem, you don't see the illegals affecting you in your nice DC condo.

I don't know why I waste my time. You're going to continue to ignore us and you will continue to try to pass this aneurism of a bill.

It may pass the senate, but it won't pass the house. THose people spend a lot of time at home. You don't.

Then see what happens to
a) anyone R or D who ever supported it in any measure - it won't be whether they voted yes or no on the final - people like chambliss in ga will vote no to try to protect him - but it cuts waaaaay deeper than that. He's gone already.
b) the Republican party. It will end. I would say 95% of us will never send any money to any national party. We will support individuals locally.

I wish you all could explain why you want this terrible, terrible thing (for us people) and refuse to listen to our concerns. It isn't helpful for your job or our country.

[Principled]

That list. My blood is boiling.

Don't have to pay taxes, but will receive EITC automatically... oh hell it's too much.

Good job putting it together B4Ranch

[crossing_over]

If you work for the White House, please ask the President to pay attention to this:

http://www.petitiononline.com/07ptbu05/petition.html

Dirk
http://immigrationparentsreform.blogspot.com/

I grew up under Communism and will not shut up.

[TheThinker]

Sorry, I’m not as worried about the 12-20 million already here as much as the next 20-40 million that the bill will let in.

[Bronzewound]

I voted for President Bush twice and am extremely dismayed with his recent performance. His support for this bill is a betrayal of his base and all Americans.

It has been the president's job since the day he took office to protect our borders. For six years he has stubbornly refused to address this invasion by illegals who obviously have little interest in assimilation into American culture. What's worse, he is now using his responsibility to protect the border as a bargaining chip to get his precious amnesty bill passed, which, as written, will only bring in more illegals.

This week President Bush told the Senate, "the status quo is unacceptable." Well, it sure as hell is, and for the last six years, he is largely responsible for that. The president's lack of leadership and action on border enforcement, EVEN AFTER 9/11, defy understanding.

The president has had six years to enforce the immigration laws we already have on the books. If he were actually willing, he could have already done much toward solving the problem. Therefore, the American people have no reason to trust that President Bush ever intends to halt the flow of illegals, and most likely terrorists as well, into our country.

It appears that the cheap labor lobby is much more important to the White House than the ordinary American citizens who are watching with sorrow and disbelief as their country and culture are rapidly being degraded. I am sorry to say that the president's lack of concern about this is appalling.

For God's sake, tell President Bush to enforce the laws we have now and do what is necessary to protect this once great nation.

• BUILD THE WALL

• STAND UP TO VINCENTE FOX

• STOP THE INVASION

• Only then can we discuss what to do with the 12 million or more illegals who are already here.

[alicewonders]

I appreciate that you are taking time to reach out to us. I can’t say it more eloquently than some of my fellow FReepers have already said it. I remember after 9/11, in New York, when President Bush was standing on the rubble of the World Trade Center with those heroic Firemen - he had a megaphone in his hand - and he said “I hear you”. It was one of his finest hours.

Please, we would appreciate it so much if you would just print out a copy of our comments and somehow, get it to President Bush so he can “hear” us. We are productive citizens, taxpayers and voters - that try hard to follow the rules and be role models for future generations - to pass down that gift that our forefathers sacrificed so much to give us.

We are not bigots - we’re not against immigration - we’re against people breaking the law to come here. I am praying that God will touch our leader’s heart. Wanting to help the poor Mexican people is honorable - but this is not the way to do it.

I am perilously close to changing my voter registration to the Independent party. You politicians are going to have to start EARNING my votes - you will never be able to ASSUME that you have them again.

“I didn’t leave the GOP, the GOP left me.”

[A Navy Vet]

"In my view, the President has done only two things right his entire term in office: The first were the tax cuts in the immediate aftermath of 9-11 to keep the economy going. Brilliant, and it worked. The second is taking the fight to the terrorists in the war on terror."

...while leaving the back door open to said terrorists.

So Thompson, how are you going to feel when a mall or stadium or other mass murder occurs due to your employer's border policies? When it happens and it's discovered that they came across the Mexican border or through other holes in our system that Bush didn't close, I hope you're still alive to realize you were an enabler. I hope you chock on it.

[A Navy Vet]

"Sorry, I’m not as worried about the 12-20 million already here as much as the next 20-40 million that the bill will let in."

Which reminds of something few talk about. Ever since Bush first started talking about "guest worker program" some years back and now this Amnesty bill, Mexicans and Central Americans and to a lessor extent South Americans have been flooding the southern border in ever increasing numbers. This is a fact presented by the head of the Border Patrol union and numerous immigration think tanks. Google it!

Soooo, once this "probation" or whatever you want to call it is law, have you not thought for one moment how many more will be flooding the US looking for the next amnesty? Don't you people in the White House listen to your Border Patrol on the line, or you just stupid?

[television is just wrong]

not good enough. deport them all, and NOW.

[LowOiL]

Please relay this to President Bush ...

Reference John 10:1 -- He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold but climbeth up another way, the same is a thief and a robber. .

We were born in the Land of Emptiness, and we're on our way to the Heavenly City," they replied.
"Then why did you jump over the wall, instead of coming through the little wooden gate? Don't you know that anyone who climbs in a different way is a thief?"
"It's a long way to the wooden gate," answered Mr. On-the-Surface. "Our people always take this short-cut. They've done it for hundreds of years, so it can't be wrong."
"But it's against the rules."
"It doesn't matter how we got in," said the men.
"If we're in, we're in."
"I walk by the Master's rules; you go your own way," said Christian.

[TheThinker]

That’s a small bone you’re throwing us Nick. Your boss has to know that many, many Americans have gone through this bill with a fine tooth comb via Constitutional lawyers like Hugh Hewitt or Senator Sessions own 20 items he has a problem with. I know George has a problem with persuading Dems to cooperate and please his base and part of the future base of the Republican party. But for God’s sake-GET RID OF THE Z-VISA PROGRAM. The main thing many of us want is not to make the problem worse. We have plenty of manual labor with current illegals. Why do we want to double or triple their numbers? Why aren’t we putting limits on chain migration in this bill? Why are the triggers anything but? Why is the President doling out a paltry sum that probably not improve security that much? You guys have a lot to answer for even for people like me who don’t necessarily advocate mass-deportation.

[tophat9000]

Mr.Nicholas Thompson

Do you remember the cold war acronym MAD ...Mutual assured destruction?...

You pass this “Nuk” of an Immigration Bill and the base will retaliate political, with every thing it has got and as long as it takes to drive support of this from any political power..every...

You destroy my country and my home with this joke and I will support anything that will hurt and destroy your power...WE ARE M.A.D.

You think hell has no fury like a women scorned? try it with this Republican base that has fought for years for you people only to get dismissed and stabbed in the back? ....payback's is going to be a stone cold political bitch

[A Navy Vet]

"We have plenty of manual labor with current illegals."

Another matter not addressed. There are probably thousands of day-laborers now on the streets of America - I have personally have seen hundreds in my county.

You folks who believe we need even more laborers should think about a transportation initiative to take these day-laborers to the fields to pick lettuce. Because that is one of the very few jobs Americans won't do!

Americans will make beds; work construction (with better quality); be Nanny's; cut lawns (remember child chores?); pick feathers off chickens (who did it before?); slaughter hogs (same; who did it before?); process fruit and other produce; stock grocery stores; stock products in warehouses; etc.

These and other are entry level jobs that American teens/young adults and legal immigrants have done for decades. The jobs were getting done, without thousands and thousands standing aroung on street corners and empty lots.

And now, thousands of illegals "doing the jobs Americans won't do" are hanging out on their porches with their welfare wives; drinking their drinks; lowering the property values of entire communities; and basically making a mess of what was once the California Dream.

As I've post before, here is a list of Southern California (the first impacted with this issue) communities of CA Counties that have been partially or completely turned into Barrios (ghettos):
Ventura
Los Angeles
Orange
Riverside
San Bernardino
Kern
San Diego

I have lived in Southern California all my 57 years, except for 3 in Spain, and personally seen ALL those counties experience Barrio (ghetto) growth; school over-crowding; lowering of academic standards; increased crime, including burglaries, rapes, murders, etc.; increase incarceration costs; lowerer property values; brutal gang warfare which kills even the innocent; welfare cheating; children running loose on the streets without fathers; horrendous vehicle accidents; general lowering of living standards; emergency rooms being use for snifles and eventually shut down due to over-run costs; etc.

ANYONE who wants to debate or question my assertions above are welcome to Google the info. Try the Heritage Foundation or Center for Immigration Reform (CIS) or Federation of American for Immigration Reform (FAIR). If you're not convinced, look me up if you're local and I will give you a tour - you pay for gas.

Just so I get the last laugh...now you folks who long though this was strictly a CA problem and blew us off as Xenophobes...well...hahahaha. We tried to tell you it would come to Home Town America. Sucks, don't it?

[Rottweilerson]

Hey, Mr. nthompsonwhitehouse,

You are a sell out ball-washer.

[philman_36]

Apparently the post at #53 hit a nerve.
I humbly submit that the thread/thread topic itself was what hit the nerve. So much so, in fact, that it warranted the response in #53 which brought about the deluge that followed.
Well done!
While I desired to bring to light another bad aspect of the proposed bill the response it has garnered since #53 suprises, amazes and astounds me.

Ripples indeed, joanie.

[backhoe]

Mr.Nicholas Thompson Do you remember the cold war acronym MAD ...Mutual assured destruction?... You pass this “Nuk” of an Immigration Bill and the base will retaliate political, with every thing it has got and as long as it takes to drive support of this from any political power..every... You destroy my country and my home with this joke and I will support anything that will hurt and destroy your power...WE ARE M.A.D. You think hell has no fury like a women scorned? try it with this Republican base that has fought for years for you people only to get dismissed and stabbed in the back? ....payback's is going to be a stone cold political bitch...

Yep.

I observe much, and comment little.

I've been called "one of the more moderate members here" besides the "Czar of Links" ( and the usual other things you find on an outspoken forum ) and I'm here to tell you nothing- not one thing- the Clintons ever did angered me as much as this betrayal.

Ever...

[philman_36]

What? Who you going to fine? This bill makes all the illegals, legal. What are you guys smoking up there at the WhiteHouse?
Remember "Coming To America" with Eddie Murphy? Remember his role as the old Jewish man in the barber shop and the joke he told?

"A-HA..."

[philman_36]

I had intended to make note of that in my eventual reply so thanks for saving me some time and effort.

[philman_36]

Now that I've read the replies on the thread allow me to direct my attention to your reply. And I DO expect something in the form of a reply, even if it's bugger off!
First, the cordiality. I, like many others, thank you for taking the time to respond. I'd also like to thank you for turning what I took to be, at my last viewing, a very lackluster thread and turning it into something beyond my wildest imaginations. (and I now also have the added pleasure of wondering if I'm famous or infamous within the hallowed halls you walk)
Second, the obvious. There is a saying you may or may not be familiar with, but which I feel that you may more fully understand now..."Boy, you done gone and started up a sh*tstorm now!"

Now more pointedly to your comments.
I would like to point out that the Secretary is authorized to reduce or mitigate penalities against employers who in good faith are trying to comply with the law.
Sounds to me like "everybody gets a free ride" because when asked I'm pretty sure every employer would insist that they were "trying" to comply with the law. Even if they weren't you've now given 'em an out. "I was trying, honest!"
Certainly, we understand that not all employers knowingly hire illegal immigrants; this will remain the case, especially before the bill’s new secure documentation requirements are fully phased in.
Well, as you know the bill’s new secure documentation requirements apply to Citizen's as well as illegal immigrants aliens. And you probably know that forged documents will still be made and used so I don't really know how effective they will be in the long run. And if the States continue in the manner in which they're already headed REAL ID won't be law much longer.

Your second paragraph was succinctly handled in another reply so there is no need for me to go back over that. (those wet towel snaps hurt, don't they)

As a reminder of what’s in the bill...
Mister, I don't need a reminder of what's in the bill. All you're doing is sounding snobbish, as if I hadn't read the information just a few lines above the information I posted.

This represents a significant increase in fines for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants.
Doesn't do much good when those fines can be mitigated. There is no "good faith" clause.

And in all of your (I notice you used "we" in your response) considerations have you asked yourself...Who is going to be the next Secretary and will his view/position be the same as the current one's?
Since you can't answer that question you obviously can't expect anything you're assuming now.
Some "real purty words" you got there, but they're just that..."purty words".