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Giuliani"s Unwelcome Birthday Guests
The New York Observer ^ | 5/29/07 | Azi Paybarah

Posted on 05/29/2007 3:13:05 PM PDT by SUSSA

Here’s an unwelcome birthday gift for Rudy Giuliani, as he travels around the city raising money: protests from fire fighters and family members of September 11th victims.

They've shown up in the past at Giuliani's presidential events. Today, they’re gathering in Bay Ridge, and they have plans to follow him nationwide starting sometime around January, according to Jim Riches, a deputy chief with the fire department whose son was killed in the World Trade Center attacks.

“We have all the UFA, the UFOA, and the fire members are all behind us -- the International Association of Fire Fighters,” said Riches. “And we’re going to be out there today to let everybody know that he’s not the hero that he says he is.”

The group’s complaints center on the faulty radios used by the fire department that day and what they say was a lack of coordination at Ground Zero.

And Riches disputes the notion that Giuliani provided any form of leadership on September 11 or in the days following.

“If somebody can tell me what he did on 9/11 that was so good, I’d love to hear it. All he did was give information on the TV”

“He did nothing,” Riches continued. “He stood there with a TV reporter and told everyone what was going on. And he got it from everybody else down at the site.”


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: elections; firefighters; giuliani; giulianitruthfile; rudy; ufa
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To: SJackson
"...a pull the troops out now platform will simply be something you’ll have to support, or at least accept"

You have no idea what you are talking about.

141 posted on 05/30/2007 1:37:32 PM PDT by TommyDale (More Americans are killed each day in the U.S. by abortion than were killed on 9/11 !)
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To: steve86
Fishing for an FR “disinvite” soon, are ya?

Golly, I hope not. Did folks read my entire post?

If Rudy is mentioned in a post, I guess it must have
the obligatory: "Anybody but Rudy" suffix.

Remember the Seinfeld episode where Kramer was in
a gay race. All statements had to be followed by:

"Not that there's anything wrong with being gay"

142 posted on 05/30/2007 1:38:20 PM PDT by cliff630 (May I never be deprived of this purple robe!)
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To: TommyDale
"...a pull the troops out now platform will simply be something you’ll have to support, or at least accept"... You have no idea what you are talking about.

Well the Libertarians and Constitution Party are the most frequently discussed, they both propose a immediate withdrawl. Paul would likely run for one or both of them, but if not, he'd defund which is as immediate as it gets. I presume you're not thinking about Michael Bloomberg. Do you think a magic candidate is going to fall from the sky next spring?

143 posted on 05/30/2007 1:46:29 PM PDT by SJackson (Be careful -- with quotations, you can damn anything, Andre Malraux)
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To: SJackson
Do you think a magic candidate is going to fall from the sky next spring?

You mean like a Magic Negro? :)
144 posted on 05/30/2007 1:49:12 PM PDT by P-40 (Al Qaeda was working in Iraq. They were just undocumented.)
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To: SJackson

First of all, when Fred Thompson officially enters (He is filing to form an exploratory committee on June 1, this Friday) all your arguments are moot. Giuliani will NOT be the nominee, and a need for a third party will be unnecessary.

If for some strange unforeseen circumstance Fred Thompson does not stop Giuliani, a new third party might just emerge ala Perot to stop the GOP abortionist. If that means turning the country over to the Dems, that is the fault of the GOP, isn’t it?


145 posted on 05/30/2007 1:51:45 PM PDT by TommyDale (More Americans are killed each day in the U.S. by abortion than were killed on 9/11 !)
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To: calcowgirl

The ones who died aren’t around anymore. A guy is not automatically a hero just because he’s a firefighter.
Nor does he necesarily have good political judgment, nor does he necessarily look beyond his selfish, parochial interests.

Union activism is often highly unrepresentative of the members’ views. I’m not attacking the general membership of this union. I’m attacking those leaders and activists in the union who will be trashing Rudy for trivial and mean-spirited reasons. Don’t swallow the Democratic line that the bosses of the unions (and those who follow their line) are the same as the general membership, or that the members are the same as their leaders.


146 posted on 05/30/2007 1:52:24 PM PDT by California Patriot ("That's not Charley the Tuna out there. It's Jaws." -- Richard Nixon)
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To: TommyDale
First of all, when Fred Thompson officially enters (He is filing to form an exploratory committee on June 1, this Friday) all your arguments are moot. Giuliani will NOT be the nominee, and a need for a third party will be unnecessary.

I've noted that before. And he'll clearly draw from Giuliani voters. Which is an excellent reason not to proudly drive voters away. That only tends to reinforce their convictions.

If for some strange unforeseen circumstance Fred Thompson does not stop Giuliani, a new third party might just emerge ala Perot to stop the GOP abortionist. If that means turning the country over to the Dems, that is the fault of the GOP, isn’t it? I seriously doubt that will happen post primaries. If Hillary wins, it will be because she got more votes. That's not necessarily the GOPs fault, people may simply feel she's better on the issues. People who recognize a difference will vote, other's may see no difference and not vote. That decision is on them, not the GOP. In the undesired event that it's Hillary vs Giuliani, there will be a recognizable difference between the parties.

147 posted on 05/30/2007 1:59:20 PM PDT by SJackson (Be careful -- with quotations, you can damn anything, Andre Malraux)
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To: Petronski
I don't really have a ping list and I haven't posted much about this. The firefighters published a scathing letter a few months back that was posted on FR. As such, I wanted to know how true it was so I did a bunch of independent reading (old articles, 9/11 report, etc.) I didn't like what I read, obviously. Here are a couple of those articles:
Firefighters Blast Giuliani Over 9/11
FirefightingNews.com ^ | March 9, 2007 | Deseret News

Giuliani will miss firefighters event
Deseret News ^ | Wednesday, March 14, 2007 | Richard Perez-Pena, New York Times News Service

There are also a slew of articles keyworded under UFA showing their support of Bush, and a bunch more under NYFD and FDNY, also showing that they are the good guys.

To read about the radio thing specifically, the NYT article series or the 9/11 report are your best bet. Or just try googling. There is a mound of information.

148 posted on 05/30/2007 1:59:58 PM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: California Patriot; calcowgirl
"A guy is not automatically a hero just because he’s a firefighter."

And a guy is not automatically a hero just because he happened to be the sitting mayor during the attack. Especially just because he did his job as he was supposed to do.

149 posted on 05/30/2007 2:00:06 PM PDT by TommyDale (More Americans are killed each day in the U.S. by abortion than were killed on 9/11 !)
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To: SJackson; Liz; indylindy; calcowgirl
"In the undesired event that it's Hillary vs Giuliani, there will be a recognizable difference between the parties."

That is quite arguable.

150 posted on 05/30/2007 2:01:45 PM PDT by TommyDale (More Americans are killed each day in the U.S. by abortion than were killed on 9/11 !)
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To: ex-snook
Scum only to those who consider Rudolph, the arrogant, ignorant liberal loving candidate as qualified to be President because he made a 9/11 speech. To the rest of us, they are 9/11 heros not speakers.

Good point. I'll file the "scum" comment in with the "if you don't vote for Rudy, you're voting for Hillary" mantra. :-)

151 posted on 05/30/2007 2:02:01 PM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: P-40
Do you think a magic candidate is going to fall from the sky next spring?...You mean like a Magic Negro? :)

You actually make an interesting point. While Obama appears to have fallen from the sky, in fact he was actively campaigning for other Dems during the 2004 campaign, being able to take time off from his Illinois run. I remember a number of runs to Wisconsin. He built up support within the party for over two years, then "fell from the sky".

Giuliani did the same thing. I can remember people making fun of his campaigning for Republican candidates last year. Building support within the party, and clearly he "fell from the sky" from the perspective of many Republicans.

There's no one like that out there.

152 posted on 05/30/2007 2:03:13 PM PDT by SJackson (Be careful -- with quotations, you can damn anything, Andre Malraux)
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To: TommyDale

It’s a fair point. I’m not saying Rudy was necessarily a great leader on 9-11 or later. I don’t know enough to say. But an overblown reputation wouldn’t be enough to justify dogging the man’s appearances and trashing him as a bad leader. I’m convinced one of two things, is the case, maybe both: Either these union bosses have a personal grudge against Rudy that they aren’t telling us about, or they’re focusing on issues that aren’t that significant for a national campaign and therefore aren’t worth hearing about, or they’ve been bought off by Hillary or other Rats and are doing their dirty work.


153 posted on 05/30/2007 2:04:07 PM PDT by California Patriot ("That's not Charley the Tuna out there. It's Jaws." -- Richard Nixon)
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To: TommyDale

That is why I am excited about Fred, he has name recognition and he is a conservative. No doubt Fred is not conservative enough for some on this forum, but I think he is our best shot at winning.


154 posted on 05/30/2007 2:04:08 PM PDT by AxelPaulsenJr (Fred Thompson for President)
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To: California Patriot
Union activism is often highly unrepresentative of the members’ views.

Granted that I am in a right-to-work state, but from my experience the union members that I run across are generally pretty good folks but the union leaders almost as a rule are scum. I don't know why that is. The odd thing is that the union members I have talked to about this agree with me about the leadership.
155 posted on 05/30/2007 2:05:07 PM PDT by P-40 (Al Qaeda was working in Iraq. They were just undocumented.)
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To: AxelPaulsenJr

Fair enough. I just get frustrated at posts that appear to pose an inevitable “it’s either Giuliani or Hillary” choice. When we complain about a GOP candidate during the general election, we’re told that the time to complain is during the primaries. But now, during the primaries, we’re told that posts illustrating the truth of Giuliani’s authoritarian record are actually supporting Hillary. I see it differently — I don’t fault Giuliani supporters for assessing the choices and making their own decisions, but I do believe a Giuliani nomination is our surest path to a Clinton or Obama presidency. Ugh.


156 posted on 05/30/2007 2:05:39 PM PDT by ellery (I don't remember a constitutional amendment that gives you the right not to be identified-R.Giuliani)
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To: California Patriot

The grudge the union leaders have against Rudy Giuliani are likely from his tight fiscal policies regarding salaries and benefits to the firefighters. He has many enemies in NYC. Not everyone buys into the “hero” status


157 posted on 05/30/2007 2:07:47 PM PDT by TommyDale (More Americans are killed each day in the U.S. by abortion than were killed on 9/11 !)
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To: ellery

Agreed.


158 posted on 05/30/2007 2:08:33 PM PDT by AxelPaulsenJr (Fred Thompson for President)
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To: SJackson
There's no one like that out there.

Good points...but it is still not too late for some 'voice from the recent past' to make an appearance. But as to who that might be.....I don't know. Newt? No. Powell? Maybe.
159 posted on 05/30/2007 2:09:19 PM PDT by P-40 (Al Qaeda was working in Iraq. They were just undocumented.)
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To: California Patriot

#1. I didn’t use the word hero, but if I do, I’ll put it beside a 9/11 firefighter’s name before I would Giuliani’s

#2. Read the thread. Those same UNIONS supported Giuliani for 8 years and Bush for the same. That was their ACTIVISM.

#3. I’m not swallowing the Dem line. But I’m also not swallowing the GOP line that any liberal Republican is immune from criticism just because it comes from a union member or a democrat. I look at the issues, research them carefully, and acknowledge TRUTH.

#4. I do not consider basic failures to prepare for a NY emergency, and the subsequent loss of life, “trivial,” nor do I think it is mean-spirited when these same criticisms have been recorded for more than five years now.

#5. Please don’t insult my intelligence again.


160 posted on 05/30/2007 2:16:32 PM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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