Bung Yer Keghole, You Hindenburgers You [ hydrogen economy ]

Maggie's Farm ^ | Thursday, May 10, 2007 | Roger de Hauteville

[SunkenCiv]

I don't want to hear another word from a Marxist masquerading as a scientist. I'm fresh out of patience for two-trust-fund Savanarolas trying to impress some lumpen girl with a cryptkeeper complexion and a shock of underarm hair by joining ELF and burning down condos and keying elaborate station wagons. I don't want another exposition on why the world will end yesterday by a hayseed Frankenstein's monster droning through an apocalyptic PowerPoint presentation with the graphs upside down and backwards. And I especially don't want to hear another word about hydrogen. Why? Because it's stupid, that's why. The Queen in Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking Glass says that she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast." ...For example, if liquid hydrogen is the form employed, then storing 20 kilograms onboard (equivalent in energy content to 20 gallons of gasoline) would require an insulated cryogenic fuel tank with a volume of some 280 liters (70 gallons). This cryogenic hydrogen would always be boiling away, which would create concerns for those who have to leave their cars parked for any length of time, and which would also turn the atmospheres in underground or otherwise enclosed parking garages into explosive fuel-air mixtures. Public parking garages containing such cars could be expected to explode regularly, since hydrogen is flammable over concentrations in air ranging from 4 to 75 percent, and the minimum energy required for its ignition is about one-twentieth that required for gasoline or natural gas... You want a hydrogen economy? Go to the sun, and get me some.

[SunkenCiv]

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[SunkenCiv]

I loved this characterization — “two-trust-fund Savanarolas”. LOL!

here’s a link to a related topic:

The Hydrogen Hoax
The New Atlantis.com | February 8, 2007 | by Robert Zubrin
Posted on 02/08/2007 3:58:09 PM EST by aculeus
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1781558/posts

[EagleUSA]

Ain’t it the truth. Food for fools and idiots of the faux crisis liberal mentality.

[BipolarBob]

Hydrogen IS the most abundant element in the universe. That said, pure and freely available hydrogen is not available in large enough scale to earthlings at this time. It is more trouble than it is worth at this point in time (with few exceptions).

[B Knotts]

Good to see someone not buying into the hydrogen hype.

[Pyro7480]

[FreePaul]

...if liquid hydrogen is the form employed...

Describes two major problems with hydrogen. Energy required to liquify it (or compress it a reasonable amount) and equipment required to store it in any usable form. Of course handling liquid or high pressure hydrogen would not be practical for anyone other than trained professionals.

[Jay Gatsby]

My son just made out Toro lawm mower run on compressed Hydrogen. It works great and is amazingly simple. There are many ways to use Hydrogen energy and we should all be more open minded to researching what type of system works best. Your criticism does not create anything.

[EagleUSA]

Your criticism does not create anything.
:::
Oh, really? Will your lawn mower drive me 60 miles to and from work and pull my trailer??? And that is what we have to live with until someone invents a substitute for petro-based gasoline -— and what have YOU created today other than a lawn mower that does not depend on foreign oil ???

Get real.

[Disambiguator]

My lawnmower runs on oxygen, but it generates lots of carbon dioxide as a waste product. It doesn't burn any fossil fuels but still contributes "greenhouse" gases to the atmosphere, plus the funk of my sweaty body when I'm done cutting the grass.

On windy days, it contributes particulate matter to the atmosphere in the form of airborne grass clippings.

Oh, the humanity.

[Spirochete]

... then storing 20 kilograms onboard (equivalent in energy content to 20 gallons of gasoline) would require an insulated cryogenic fuel tank with a volume of some 280 liters (70 gallons).

With current fuel cell technology, a sedan needs about 5 kilos to get the same range as a gasoline equivalent.

[MrEdd]

Yep this can't exist. Must be a mirage. It isn't practical for hydrogen to be used as a fuel.

Tell me how is the abject denial of empirical evidence in this diatribe ANY different from the junk science Weird Al Gore offers up? I can post pages and pages of working vehicle pictures and you tube links to driving tests.

There comes a point where a position becomes indefensible. You can still claim that internal combustion engines are more cost effective, but to claim that fuel cell vehicles are not feasible is like a toddler throwing a tantrum in the toy aisle at this point - pathetic .

[bubbacluck]

I wonder how much that bus actually cost?

[Jokelahoma]

I don't want to hear another thing about landing a man on the moon! Preposterous! And don't ever make me listen to another long winded speech about the ability to sail around the world without falling off the edge. Insanity! And oh, if I have to sit through another PowerPoint presentation about how the Earth supposedly revolves around the sun instead of the other way around, I'll lose my mind! These things simply can't be, and we should be sure to ridicule those who attempt to prove otherwise! Can't is the operative word here. Can't! You can't! Never! Cannot!

Now go saddle up the horses. We have another meeting to go to where we'll make fun of those who think this new-fangled "automobile" idea could ever possibly work!

[MrEdd]

These are in Germany and are not mass produced. They are currently about $580,000 U.S. equivalent, or twice the cost of a mass produced diesel bus in that market.

[SW6906]

Most of the first automobiles were ridiculously expensive and only affordable by the very wealthy. It wasn’t until Henry Ford and mass production came along that they became affordable to the masses.

[MrEdd]

ping.

[BillM]

The problem is replacing all the fuel production and distributions systems in America. Everyone will have to either scrap or extensively modify their existing vehicles (>100,000,000?). This is quite a process!

Liquid or compressed Hydrogen is not a vialble fuel. It will have to be chemically or mechanically bound and released on demand.

[50sDad]

Ummmmmmm....Hinden-burgers!

[MrEdd]

We have diesel and gasoline fuel distribution now. Parallel fuel distribution has been a fact for decades. why therefore would anyone need to get rid of a functioning combustion engine vehicle? That is a straw man.

The particular bus picture I posted uses liquid hydrogen. The bus is in use now. It functions. It is not the only such model. I agree that liquid storage is less for small autos, but only because of the volume interior space they consume - relative to the space required to store equivalent energy in gasoline.