Tough road for Republicans w / Emerging Church Christians

[ktupper]

Over the last few months, I've noticed a definite shift in attitudes among many of the Christian forums and blogs I read and with many of my friends.

The emerging church movement (for lack of a better term) is making strong in roads into what was once a lock vote for the Republicans.

It seems many are looking at areas of social justice, the war, etc...as much as abortion. The discussion is that a lot of these people who always formerly voted Republican will vote for someone like Obama.

The problem is many of them are conservative with respect to issues, not with respect to political philosophy. I've tried amongst my friends to stress that a government solution is usually far more costly and often doesn't work...but to no avail.

Is anyone else experiencing this?

[what's up]

various movements like liberation theology playing a prominent role

Strains of liberation theology (run by "liberals" in the church by the way) is what we have at play here. Many, many christians here also buy into the message that money should be taken from the rich and given to the poor.

The backbone of the Religious Right is not fiscal (although most are fiscally conservative) but rather social conservatism

That's what I mean. And that's why a lot of christians who are not strong fiscal conservatives will be taken in by a social message.

[what's up]

Bush Republicans have blown that issue too

You would hate to see what a Hitlery or Obama would do to the deficits and budget. And no tax-cut revenue to help out either.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

You are right in your observation.

They are politically uneducated people with basically conservative values. They mean well but have no idea what they are talking about or how dangerous power can be. They are narrow, one-directional people. They can see that being a good samaritan is good, but they are blind to the evil of certain means or the nulification of the justness of the deed when it comes about by force and with the use of other people's money. Charity is not charity unless the money is your own. But they don't get it. Generally nice people though. Oh...and let me say that they are worse on theology than they are on politics. Our churches have been lazy and negligent about teaching doctrine and now scam artists (like Brian McLaren) are leading masses astray. You only think the majority in this country is Christian. No, the majority still uses the label, but they don't have any idea what it really means. It's like being American, or maybe like being asian or hispanic...a heritage you are born with. So they want to do good and prove their Christianity, but they don't really want to do too much good with their own money. They want the glory without the sacrifice basically. They want to feel good about themselves and simply use the poor and steal from the industrious in order to bring this feel-good state to themselves. Oh..and they want to feel good by doing good (with little self-sacrifice) but they reveal their phony faith in that they don't really want to be good. They are the world.

I still say most are well-meaning, just blind.

There is a significant shift taking place. Though it is more of an exposure of weakness than a changing of minds.

How much this harms the Republicans or benefits the Democrats is not that clear because the Republicans are undergoing a major shift to the left as well. That I would blame on the "power over principle" crowd. You are always vulnerable when power is your highest value. Stupidest part of that is, it takes a lot of ridiculous guess work. You have to foretell which shifts in ideology will bring you the power you crave. Where should you sellout? With no value trumping the pursuit of power, a shifting ideology is a given, but where you will end up is a total crapshoot.

Who is the principled conservative (Christian or not) supposed to vote for? Neither party's top-tier candidates are people my conscience can support. So what if the too-dumb-to-know-socialism-is-evil people vote for Obama. Maybe we need a little of that to remind ourselves why it's the wrong road. And maybe, just maybe, true conservatives with backbone will rise up and turn things around.

There are many interesting changes taking place in the political factions that make up our political system. The left is benefiting the most from these shifts right now. But these things can change in a hurry. It ain't over till it's over. Just be glad the presidential election is not this November.

[vpintheak]

My conservative in-laws both say they will vote for Hillary. I cannot fathom the deep, deep, deep disconnect between Biblical teachings and the evil of some of these politicians.

[fishtank]

Big bump to your post here.

Rick Warren wants to be the Emergent James Dobson - which I do not consider to be a compliment to either Dobson or Warren.

[LikeLight]

Rick Warren wants to be the Emergent James Dobson - which I do not consider to be a compliment to either Dobson or Warren.

No, you don't get it at all. The emergent church is in large part a protest against mega-church baby boomer Christianity.

[Zetman]

What is “social justice”? I’m not intending to be a smart alec here. It is a term I’ve heard several times in reference to things that our congregation should be mindful of- and it always gives me a pause. I associate the term as some sort of leftist codeword. Clarification, anyone?

Near as I can tell, Social Justice is societal reform, and a way of living ones' life which is advocated by Liberation Theology. Liberation Theology, if I understand it correctly, is basically Marxism and Socialism dressed up with Christian terms and concepts to make it more palatable. It is a way for Marxists to co-opt and undermine Christianity and/or turn it to their own purposes. The preaching of Liberation Theology and Social Justice concepts can also be used to pull Christians into left-wing movements who would otherwise want nothing to do with those movements.

Many theologians in Central and South America were pushing this Liberation Theology stuff in recent decades, and the Pope has condemned it sometime within the past 10 years, or so.

I become instantly suspicious anytime I hear a church-type person use the terms "social", "tolerance", "justice", "judgmental", "diversity", or any form of those words. They are all too frequently a sign of someone who holds to some degree of liberalism.

In addition, I noticed that in the Wikipedia article on "Emerging Churches" which someone linked to earlier, that there are additional terms which are being co-opted as "codewords" or "buzzwords" for the "emerging church" people. Here is the key section:

The movement's members make liberal use of jargon originally co-opted from more popular usage by related schools of thought such as the narrative theology movement. Once emergents have made them their own, terms such as "generous," "missional," "authentic," "narrative," and "conversation" serve as "flags" by which emergents are able to quickly recognize each other across denominational lines.

All in all, a very interesting use of, and redefinition of our language by all of these people. I guess this is what one would call "deconstruction". We must always be vigilant, as it seems that the evil liberalism which is infusing Christianity is constantly learning, evolving, redefining itself, and becoming more sophisticated. The Bible says that sometimes, satan himself can appear as an angel of light.

[LikeLight]

TGOFP gets it more or less correct (I wouldn't call McLaren a scam artist - I think he believes in what he's teaching - and much of his critique of the modern Evangelical Church is spot on - it's just that his remedies are even worse!):

Our churches have been lazy and negligent about teaching doctrine and now scam artists (like Brian McLaren) are leading masses astray. You only think the majority in this country is Christian. No, the majority still uses the label, but they don't have any idea what it really means.

fishtank, if you want to understand the emergent church and their emergent guru, you've got to read McLaren. He truly is issuing a challenge to Dobson, in that emergent sort of way that he has.

[LikeLight]

(It’s more about attempting to do Christianity without so much of the usual Church baggage.)

Care to explain that a bit more?

I can try, with some questions. Does the Gospel of Jesus Christ transcend human culture? Temporally, geographically, politically? If so, can we live with that?

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

What do you think of this interview with Brian McLaren? Read the whole thing if you have time. It reads like a scam artist to me. He is the most complimentary when his interviewer is the most outrageous. That's what you do when you want to reinforce conditioning. It's an effective technique than can be used for good or evil. It's just a tool. But see it in the hands of McLaren below, and there are far worse parts to this interview. I'm just addressing your point on whether McLaren is a scammer or not. Does he know he is leading people away from genuine Chrisitan faith?

Hansen: Well, can I just do a couple of personal questions? Probably more myself. I don’t know how many of my listeners are in this similar place. But—or how many people you’ve talked to are, if you talk to mostly people who have no problem calling themselves Christians and feel God’s presence and all, but I am honest with you. I am in an incredibly dry—Particularly I was involved with a charismatic church, a Vineyard. I loved it. And I still actually hold that those experiences were largely valid and good. There’s a lot of poop in the middle of it all, humanity. But that’s okay. That’s always going to happen. But right now, I don’t think it’s intellectual. I think that large enough through my thinking, and school and your writings, there sort of just this emerging view of how I can reembrace my faith on an intellectual level. There’s still a few little struggles. But there always will be. On an emotional level though, I am just really struggling trusting even God exists at all. And I can’t mental talk myself into that, I don’t think. I think I said this to you in the letter. I think part of it is I’m scared—Things have changed so many times. I’m scared that if I start saying a believe certain things and trusting and standing on things, I’m going to be humbled again and let down and disappointed. Do you know other people struggling? Do you have any other advice for those of us in that place of how to rebuild a really basic trust again?

McLaren: Yeah. Yeah. Well, first of all, I think your honesty about that will resonant to an awful lot of people who listen to this. Because I just heard a very well known pastor—again, I won’t out him on this. But a very well known pastor said exactly the same thing recently. He said, You know, half the Mondays I get up and I just think, I’m not sure I believe anything that I preached yesterday. I’m not sure I believe any of this. But he just said his struggle it keeps coming back again and again and again. So, you know, this is a terrible problem. It is especially a problem for reflective people. I don’t know if you’ve heard this song by Jill Philips. She has a song called “God believes in You.” And there is some line in the song that goes something like: On those days when you don’t believe in yourself, God believes in you. And there’s a certain sense that reflective people, we’re capable of disbelieving anything, including ourselves, you know. So, part of this I think, for those of us who are highly reflective—and if you don’t know this, Leif, you are one of the most highly reflective of the highly reflective. You know, I think it is hard, probably it is one of the curses and blessings of your, of the kind of personality that you are. And I think I have this too. Is that we’re capable of doubting and disbelieving all kinds of things.

[arthurus]

This “Emerging Church” sounds like a big jolly social club in which members say “Jesus” and “Amen” a lot.

[dan1123]

There are plenty of emergent/emerging church republicans. I have met several myself. The emerging church is about going against evangelical culture—not any doctrine or political position. I say this from the experience of attending an admittedly conservative emerging church though. The evangelical church has been struck with scandal, overreached in Biblical interpretation, and became a kind of subculture of extra-Biblical values.

The emerging church is a backlash against evangelical christian culture to make people realize that Christianity is about Jesus, not church practices. They are reaching out to a generation that has been fed anti-church propaganda to the point that they will lash out against anything that feels too churchy. As a fledgling movement, there are some proponents who would prefer to substitute liberalism as the emerging church’s religion, but at the same time the emerging church does not want to be seen as opposing liberalism. The idea is more that Christianity is discovered individually through the Spirit through the Bible, and not declared from pulpits, so the emerging church will not force interpretations or strong theology on people, nor will it back away from difficult parts of the Bible in order to make Christianity look better. It is humble to a fault, and nonjudgmental to a fault.

All this said, I am not an emergent, but I see value in their pursuit. Some Christians I know have no real contact with the anti-Christian secular world, especially on the coasts of the U.S.. They don’t realize just how humble and non-judgmental you have to be to reach out to a person who has been seeped in anti-Christian propaganda. The purpose isn’t to force doctrine into someone, but to break down barriers of stereotypes so that nonchristians will take a deeper look into the core of Christianity. It depends far more on the community of believers than a strong doctrine, a worship band, or charismatic speaker.

[dan1123]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1822765/posts?q=1&;page=51#73

[tang-soo]

What is an “Emerging Church Christian”?

Here is a portion of an excellent article. I think this is very important to understand. Th erest of the article can be found

Thus, this purpose-driven view of establishing global utopia may be a plan, but it is “driven” by humanistic reasoning and not led by the Holy Spirit. While it is of course good to do good unto others, all the goodness that we can do will not be good enough. Pastors and church leaders who get involved in such man-driven programs can usually be identified by certain characteristics:

• Sound biblical doctrine is dangerous and divisive, and the experiential (i.e.,mystical) is given a greater role than doctrine.
• Bible prophecy is no longer taught and is considered a waste of time
• Israel becomes less and less important and has no biblical significance
• Eventually the promises for Israel are applied to the church and not Israel (Replacement Theology).
• Bible study is replaced by studying someone’s book and his methods
• Church health is evaluated on the quantity of people who attend.
• The truth of God’s Word becomes less and less important
• God’s Word, especially concepts like hell, sin and repentance, is eventually downplayed so the unbeliever is not offended.

[tang-soo]

Oops. Sorry. The link didn't come through. The rest of the article can be found here.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

Without strong doctrine how do they know their community is a "community of believers" or not? Believers in what exactly?

As for humility, emergents are the most arrogant people I have ever come across. They are like someone who wrote a book entitled "Humility and how I attained it, with six 8X10 glossy pictures of "me" in "my" most humble moments." Humble people don't announce their humility. And humble is not a synonym for dumb. The other thing emergents do is talk endlessly about their fasting and other rituals. Excuse me but wasn't that a major sin of the Pharisees (hardly a humble group) who would flaunt their fasting before men? And the emergents give lip-service to your idea of a "Christianity [that] is discovered individually through the Spirit through the Bible..." but what they really mean is a Christianity discovered from the depths of their own mysitc imaginations, while the Bible collects dust on the shelf. If they use their Bible at all it is for visualization stories or for mantra ideas to help them reach the mystic "cloud of unknowing."

[Terriergal]

Emerging Church Christian are these kinds of people:
www.sojo.net