The Mormon Advantage

Townhall.com ^ | 4/5/2007 | Maggie Gallagher

[Utah Girl]

Mitt Romney is riding high this week after his victory in "the first primary," which consists of raising cold, hard cash to compete: more than $20 million in the first quarter, $5 million more than his closest contender, Rudy "Lay off my wife!" Giuliani. John McCain came in a lackluster third with $12.5 million.

Romney's campaign benefited from two distinct donor networks, according to media accounts: Wall Street and Mormons. GOP front-runner Rudy, struggling with one of those weird media freak shows erupting around his wife, Judith (her alleged participation in future Cabinet meetings and former puppy killings), must be a little envious on both counts.

Why is it that all the Dem candidates are still married to their first spouse, while among the current crop of leading GOP contenders, the only guy with just one wife is the Mormon?

Truth is, I don't think this is just an accident. There's something about Mormons the rest of us ought to pay attention to: Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do much better than almost any other faith group at sustaining a marriage culture -- and they do this while participating fully and successfully in modern life. Utah is above the national average in both household income and the proportion of adults who are college graduates.

[LeGrande]

It is hard to reply when you so poorly format your reply.

I don't think anyone considers Jewish or Catholic people to be particularly secretive in their temple work.

Maybe you haven't heard of the Kabbalah or the secret societies?

I find it very telling that you have not said that what the Mormons did at Mountain Meadows was wrong; it's almost as if you are defending the massacre. Are you?

Would I have called them victims if I was defending Lee's action. Do you know why they massacred them?

The Mormons in Missouri brutalized the local population via the Mormon Dannites under Joseph Smith. The Mormons formed their own enclaves which were isolated and separated from the general population, during a time in our history where there was a large separatist movement about (approaching the Civil War). It's disingenuous and deceitful to simply say that the Mormons were persecuted.

Talk about dancing around the truth. The Mormons never brutalized the local population. The truth is that the Mormons were persecuted because they were abolitionists in a pro slavery state.

Also, remember that the Mormons do not believe that God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent.

I am curious, just where in the New Testament does it say that Christ is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent? I seem to remember somewhere that it says Christ couldn't perform miracles because of the unbelief of the people. Does that sound omnipotent to you?

[Boiler Plate]

You entirely missed the point. Bush trusts a Mormon with such a place on his Cabinet. You don’t, big deal.

Just how did you come up with that gem? Are you part of the psychic friends network, or is this a secret mormon power?

[sevenbak]

No, I’m not psychic, I can just read your posts about Mormons.

BTW, thanks for responding. I never heard back from you about your claim that Abraham lied about his wife being his sister?

[restornu]

Yet we see living proof “911” of the return of those from the “Crusades” try to do away with the Christians world today and for some to say that there aren’t a few that exist today that harbor those very thoughts against the LDS...

If they believe that than show us, by stop trying to undermind the bridge building of love and friendship!

[jatopilot99]

Sorry for the poor format, I messed up trying to put italics in.

Can you answer the below question that I’ve asked you a couple of times now? I think we can both agree that a death gesture is cult-like, but I’d like to hear your answer.

“Did you make that death penalty gesture when you were in the temple? Do you think that such penalty gestures are not cult-like?”

[PGalt]

Thanks for the ping. At a glance, an interesting and informative thread. I will try and catch up to it sometime this weekend. Thanks to all contributors.

[Boiler Plate]

SB,

Hmmm, apparently you read in more, than what is written. Where did I say, I do not trust mormons? Most of the mormons I have known are polite, affable and keep their word, but you are good bit different. You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder and are more than ready to make assumptions that you have little basis for.

Last time you wrote.

You claim not to be immature, but I can see no other reason why one would post such rubage(sic)?

Which as I pointed out was laughable and this is why.
1. I never made any claims about maturity.
2. Your poor grammar, "claim not to be immature" should have been written "claim to be mature", which would have avoided the double negative.
3. You can't spell, "rubage" is actually "rubbage".
4. Your simple grammatical and spelling errors actual indicate immaturity on your part (ie not having passed 5th grade English or unwillingness to proofread)

Now those may have been honest mistakes and you might be as old and wise as the hills, but you might want to make sure you aren't standing in a pile of poop before you tell someone else they smell bad. The point is you never asked if I thought I was mature, you asked me how old I was. You claim I don't trust mormons, but you don't have anything really solid to base that on. Why not just ask me if I trust mormons instead of trying extrapolate from my comments about Mitt Romney.

In any case, I guess I have never seen a mormon so easily offended as yourself or one so openly spoiling for a fight. Did you just recently join LDS or haven't you read the complete Steven Covey library yet? Maybe there is a dark side to the mormons after all, I guess we will find out as Mitt's campaign moves ahead.

Warmest Regards,
Boiler Plate

P.S.

Genesis 20:2

and there Abraham said of his wife Sarah, "She is my sister." Then Abimelech king of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her.

Abraham did this to deceive the King Gerar because he feared for his own life. So actually we have 3 sins here.
1. Deception
2. Allowing his wife and the King to commit adultery, where God himself has to intervene in to keep it from happening.
3. Fear/lack of faith, Abraham did not trust God to take care of him.

Romans 3:23

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

That includes you, me and Abraham.

[LeGrande]

Did you make that death penalty gesture when you were in the temple? Do you think that such penalty gestures are not cult-like?

Ahh the penalties. As you know, the Temple ceremonies are symbolic. The penalties represent spiritual death for failing to keep Gods commandments. I don't think there is anything cult like in that teaching at all. The penalty for sin is death (spiritual death), I seem to recall from somewhere :) It is only through the Atonement of Christ that we are able to repent and be with him after we die. This is clearly taught in the Temple Ceremony.

Now if you want to get an ally, or at least make a good point, my wife really objected to the part where she is to "Obey" me. I actually thought that was one of the better parts of the Temple Ceremony : )

[nowandlater]

I only sighed because I knew it would only lead to a fight. I am not pointing the finger at you, but I think a discussion on religion, unlike science where claims can be tested in a labatory, ultimately is highly subjective to one’s interpretation of the God’s word (which I would hope is guided by the Holy Spirit). This is why I have disdain for such an argument. It is pointless to have a discussion if both parties are not willing to cede any ground from their respective points of view.

I believe in angels visiting men today who have authority to act as a respresentative for the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

I believe that the vision of Stephen the Martyr is literal, which is God the Father and Jesus Christ are seperate physical beings.

I believe that we are a very tiny way, sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father as stated in Psalms 8:6 “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are achildren of the most High” and by Jesus Christ in John 10:34 “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?”

I believe Jesus Christ was in the beginning the Word and was with the Father, and became Flesh as a creation of our Heavenly Father.

I believe that scattering of the Jews into all the nations of the world as prophesied by Jeremiah 34:17 is literal. The Americas was one of these nations and for a brief period of time had a people who followed the Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe that the story of the Tower Babel as depicted in the Bible resulted in a migration of a people to the Americas too.

I believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ is 1. Faith in his name, 2. Repentance, 3. Baptism by immersion, 4. Gift of the Holy Ghost., and 5. Saintification through the power of the Holy Ghost by the life-long process of following its promptings, improving oneself, and committing one to Jesus Christ through worship and service.

And finally I believe I am committing myself in following Jesus Christ with all of my heart when I weekly in our Sundays services partake of the Sacrament of our Lord and Savior. These are the sacramental prayers of that service which is the highlight and the most important aspect in my worship every week:

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen

[DelphiUser]

>>Uhhh, ok, thanks I think... I admire Mormons even more now that I have learned it’s a two year mission. How’s that?

OK, I guess, but don’t take this the wrong way, I didn’t go on a mission to impress anyone, I did it because I wanted to spread the Gospel and bring people to Christ. So, it’s ok, but not the reason … you do understand what I’m slaughtering here, right?

>>Btw, are you a Mormon making a sincere correction or just one of the many pot shot’ers that lurk on this blog?

No pot shot intended. I also get annoyed when people say reiterate, since iteration is the process of repeating something you cannot reiterate, you can only continue to iterate. (sorry, pet peeve there and you have to feed them every now and again or they get cranky.)

[sevenbak]

First off, my small laptop and mild dyslexia is much of the reason for my spelling, grammar is just because I'm stupid. ;-) 2nd, I must have mistaken for you not trusting Mormons with your juvenile Sesame Street comments. Based on the fact that this family is named after either pets or Sesame Street characters, I think I'll take my vote elsewhere.

Wither you were just being Immature, like I said, or the trust being a deeper issue is known only to you I guess. And finally, you are wrong on all three counts. Read Genesis 20 again, not just the verse you quoted.

Abraham was married to Sarah, but she WAS his sister, so he didn't lie. His father also had multiple wives and she was his sister from another mother. Also, the King Abimelech (not Gerar) was warned in a dream by God not to touch Sarah, so no adultery was committed. Abraham put ALL his faith in God, and both he and Sarah came out of it unscathed. Here's a link if you think I'm wrong.

http://scriptures.lds.org/gen/20/12#12

[MHGinTN]

Abimolech was King of Gerar which lands were between Shur and Kadesh on the Arabian Peninsula ... Abram had journeyed out into the Al Shamiya wasteland/desert away from Ur, then South into Gerar.

[E.G.C.]

BTTT

[AnalogReigns]

I don’t have time or inclination to refute you point by point, but I think you are well aware that conservative, bible-obedient Christians of all kinds who’ve studied Mormonism identify it as not a Christian denomination.

The complete dedication to polygamy by your founders also, is far from a “red herring.” Morality matters. These were not men living thousands of years ago, before the truth of the bible was complete, but contemporaries with Lincoln, D.L.Moody, or Charles Spurgeon. Personal/family morality matters a great deal—particularly if someone claims to form a radically new religion based on supposed new revelation.

The Apostle Paul commanded in no uncertain terms that married men be monogamous as a condition to holding ANY kind of a leadershhip in the Church:

“A bishop(means “overseer”) then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach...” (I Tim. 3:2)

“Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.” (I Tim. 3:12)

“ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.” (Titus 1:5b,6)

Since we know that the Apostle Paul himself was unmarried, and that historically many of the leaders after this in the Church were also single and celibate, we know these “husband of one wife” verses weren’t intended to mandate marriage in leaders. Instead, they clearly disallowed polygamy—a lifestyle still common in the ancient world. If we take the inspiration of Holy Spirit in Scripture seriously, these verses alone show that Mormonism’s founders, like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, were living in complete disobedience to God’s Holy Word.

That fact alone disqualifies any “revelation” they claimed to have as being from God.

[DelphiUser]

>>I don’t have time or inclination to refute you point by point

Yes, I hear that a lot from people in denial.

>>I think you are well aware that conservative, bible-obedient Christians of all kinds
>>who’ve studied Mormonism identify it as not a Christian denomination.

No, I find that Conservative Bible oriented (Obedient?) Christians when they study Mormonism join, because they recognize truth and are drawn to it. That is why you are afraid to study the materials I have given you.

>>The complete dedication to polygamy by your founders also, is far from a “red herring.” Morality matters.

LOL! When losing on one front attack on another to distract.

OK, I have nothing to fear on the polygamy issue either, for it is biblical. I will refute your attempts here then prove that God approves of Polygamy today.

>>The Apostle Paul commanded in no uncertain terms that married men be monogamous
>>as a condition to holding ANY kind of a leadershhip in the Church:

Actually if you go look at the original Greek (I don’t speak Greek, but I have looked up the translation) Here, go look at this http://www.christianseparatist.org/briefs/sb3.21.html

Here is the relevant passage from a non Mormon I might add, it is a “Christian” commentary on Titus
“In verse five of Titus, we find Paul telling Titus what his responsibility was:

For this cause I left you in Crete, that you set in order the things lacking, and appoint elders in every city, as I ordered you; if anyone is unaccusable, one woman and man having children with persuasion, not in accusation of debauchery or unruly (vs. 5-6).

Jews tells us that if we have more than one wife we will go to Hell. This Scripture cannot be used to support that contention. The truth is that the Bible does not teach monogamy or polygamy, it teaches marriage. We know from looking at the Bible in total context that an elder is not necessarily required to have at least one wife and children. Paul was a single man at the time he wrote this statement (he had been married in the past for that was a requirement to be a sitting member the Sanhedrin), and was he not qualified to be an elder? I am sure there is a Jew somewhere right now saying that Paul was not qualified, but that is utterly stupid, and remember who it was that wrote this letter to Titus. But if, however, a man does have a family, it is most definitely a requirement that every member of his household be a Christian believer with persuasion. If he cannot rule his own home, he certainly cannot rule God’s House.”

The Greek construct was a word that means “one” or “more than one” in a single word. When it was translated, the Translators had to choose between “one”, and “at least one”. They chose the shorter verbiage for obvious reasons.

“The bible does not teach monogamy or Polygamy, it teaches marriage.” All marriage is acceptable to God.

>>Since we know that the Apostle Paul himself was unmarried, and that historically
>>many of the leaders after this in the Church were also single and celibate, we know
>>these “husband of one wife” verses weren’t intended to mandate marriage in leaders.

Bwa Ha Ha Ha, Fine I’ll accept this since men doing X were approved by God it’s ok logic, you will regret this later in this discussion, I assure you.

>>Instead, they clearly disallowed polygamy—a lifestyle still common in the ancient world.

The original language did not, only a poor interpretation did.

>>If we take the inspiration of Holy Spirit in Scripture seriously, these verses alone show
>>that Mormonism’s founders, like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, were living in
>>complete disobedience to God’s Holy Word.

LOL! It shows that Joseph smith without the ability to read Greek, understood more of the Bible than you do.

>>That fact alone disqualifies any “revelation” they claimed to have as being from God.

Have you ever hear the term “Rush to Judgment”? Interestingly the whole reason you and I are having this discussion is that you Judged me by judging my church, and claiming we were not Christian. Here you are judging again.

Have fun with this one, I have no idea the denomination of this page, but he has an interesting take http://www.samchapman.talktalk.net/scriptur.htm

Sillogism is a method of logical argument whereby you take two known and agreed upon facts and deduce another fact. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/syllogism

Lets try this with Polygamy

1. God does not change.
2. Abraham had two wives (as well as concubines) and was specifically approved of by God after being polygamous.
3. Therefore God still approves of polygamy.

We can put Jacob, Saul, David, Solomon (I got more if you really want) in Step 2 and what do you get? If God actually approved of any one of these people, he approves of polygamy.

Let me ask you a question, Is it better to:
A) Have a man married to more than one woman, and have him honoring his marriage covenants,
B) to have a man break his vows to divorce a woman and marry another?
Jesus called this divorce to remarry adultery, yet that is what is practiced today. Polygamy is more moral than Serial Polygamy, which is by default what you are advocating.

God bless you and teach you his ways.

[Boiler Plate]

SB,
Dyslexia is not an excuse as there is a spell checker. Instead it means you are not willing to take the time to use it. Why aren’t you willing to use it, could be anger, could be laziness, that’s up to you to sort out. Dyslexia is a common ailment and we all have to learn how to overcome it, using whatever tools are available.

How you make the extension from a tongue in cheek comment about an individual’s odd names for himself and his family, to my mistrusting every living breathing mormon is quite a feat of logic. Apparently the mormons I know are completely unaware of my mistrust as over the years I have had the opportunity to meet Bill and JW Marriott, the Lettermen and always get upgraded at Marriott Hotels, which I stay at whenever possible.

As I said SB, you have an anger management problem, which is atypical of mormons. I have read Steven Covey’s books and have found useful advice in them, you might do well to read and heed them.

In regards to Abraham I clearly pointed what his sins were. You did not refute any of those points and oddly enough made may case for me in pointing that God had to intervene to keep the adultery from happening.

I hope your overarching point in regards to Abraham, isn’t that God condones multiple wives. That would be a huge error on your part, seeing that you are a mormon.

Most Humble Regards,
Boiler Plate

[MHGinTN]

“If God actually approved of any one of these people, he approves of polygamy.” That is clearly an erroneous conclusion since the same could then be applied to divorce, but the scriptures say clearly that God allowed divorce because of the hardness of their hearts not because he ‘approved’ of divorce. But that was a nice try ...

[Seruzawa]

This is all silly. Anyone’s religious beliefs appear ridiculous to anyone else that doesn’t subscribe. For example Buddhists would find the belief that a person could live a life of unmitigated evil but be saved at the last minute on his deathbed by accepting Christ a most stupid idea. Or that a person who lived a decent life but never heard the word of god would burn in eternal torment would be an equally ridiculous proposition. From that viewpoint any Christian or Moslem belief system is crackers. Buddhists generally believe that a person lives lifetime after lifetime until they achieve their form of salvation.

So, one should show a little restraint before calling other’s religious beliefs “crazy”. It’s a pot vs kettle thing. Plenty of Lutherans attend Church, tithe and then beat their children.

The Mormons don’t bother me. I much prefer the society we have in Utah, for all it’s faults, to what I found in LA or Frisco.

[Scotsman will be Free]

Well let’s do with out semantics. Can anyone watch any ceremony or are there restrictions based on being a Mormon, one’s “rank” or status in the church, etc? If so, what are those restrictions?

[Scotsman will be Free]

Thanks for your comments. I have not heard of specific rituals or worship that were held in secret, just that some were. I was not asking about one’s personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I was referring to rituals, services and so forth that are held either routinely or from time to time with all or some of the congregation.
I’m afraid that I do not understand your reference to rabbis and priests wearing their clothing of office and not being mocked. Are you implying that Mormom “priests” are mocked if wearing whatever religious garb they have in public? I have never seen a Mormon wearing anything other than normal clothing. I have never heard of a Mormon being mocked for what they wore. You lost me on that one.
On the other hand I have heard comments about the way nuns, Mennonites, Amish, etc. dress.