Posted on 04/04/2007 9:42:54 AM PDT by balch3
Once again, it's me and Ralph Peters on the same wavelength, deploring the cowardice of the British sailors and marines kidnapped by Iran. When it happened, I said I hoped the ones who'd shamed their country would be court-martialed on return to Blighty, and given dishonorable discharges after a couple years breaking rocks in the Outer Hebrides (which, believe me—I've been there—have a LOT of rocks). Now, I confess, I wouldn't shed a tear if some worse fate befell them.
The only coherent response I get to these sentiments is: "How do you know what they've been through? How would YOU stand up?" To which the obvious reply is the one Dr. Johnson gave in some similar case: "I may criticize a carpenter who makes me a bad table, though I cannot make a table myself. It is not my job to make tables." It is the job of a Royal Marine to fight, and if necessary suffer and die, for his country. They know that when they go in. It's what they are told! I nurse a quiet hope that if put to the test, I would stand up as well as any Marine. Whether or not I would, however, is irrelevant. Whether or not I could stand up well to torture, I expect Marines to.
And in any case, there was no evidence of torture or mistreatment in any of the filmed cases I have seen. They look just fine. You can't fake that. The girl sailor had that headscarf on within hours. From what I've heard of torture, even weaker cases can hold out for a few days.
(Excerpt) Read more at corner.nationalreview.com ...
they were ON the “dhow”.....a “dhow” so large it was carrying cars as cargo.....every pic of the “dhow” in question shows it to be actually a cargo ship, large and made of steel. The witness/journalist Ian Pannel says they were onboard....
why do you wish to pretend that a defense wasn’t possible???
There's nothing in the posted article that talks about him being captured by the Iranians. If you are making the claim that he was captured, then provide proof of same.
If you choose dishonor over war you will get BOTH
Is it honorable to disregard orders and training? Is surrendering in the first place honorable (which current information indicates they were ordered to do).
Personally, I would have preferred the Brits start bombing and not stop until the hostages were released. But this author makes a judgment on what these individuals should have done without knowing them, what their specific orders were for after they were captured, or what they went through while being held captive.
They aren’t going to be released today??
Yes they are.
so does the BBC
The men were seized at 1030 local time when they boarded a boat in the Gulf, off the coast of Iraq, which they suspected was smuggling cars.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6484279.stm
“Only when evasion by an individual is impossible and further fighting would lead only to death with no significant loss of the enemy should only consider surrender. With all reasonable means of resistance exhausted and with certain death the only alternative, capture does not imply dishonor.”
"No significant loss of the enemy"? You got to be joking. The HMS Cornwall, a high-tech, heavily armed frigate was on the scene. They had eight anti-ship missiles at the ready, and could have sunk each and every one of the Iranian boats.
Captain Loyd Bucher of the Peublo did the same thing in 1968 only with North Korean pirates. But he actually tried to flee, and didn't surrender until he was heavily fired upon and lost one sailor and others were wounded, including himself. And there was NO ONE around to come to his aid. The Brits had an armed helicopter flying overhead and a heavily armed frigate, the HMS Cornwall in the immediate area. They stood down when they had a real chance to fight and put the enemy down to the bottom of the sea.
Captain Loyd Bucher was humiliated and court martial was recommended, but charges were later dismissed because Bucher had suffered enormously during his capture. Bucher did a lot more to avert capture than these Brits did, and even so he was disgraced in the Navy for surrendering. After capture, his men endured an entire year of severe torture before they began to make phoney 'confessions', all the while doing things like naming "Maxwell Smart" as their 'accomplices', and flipping the bird en masse to the N. Korean photographer to show the world their courage and defiance against the NK's. Due to their bravery and non-compliance with their North Korean capturers some of Pueblo crew were awarded decorations for heroism. The Brits began to make their "confessions" immediately after capture. Something has broken down and I believe it is directly related to our wimpy cultures today, and lack of patriotism and courage.
You are defending an act of cowardice, or at the very least an act of shameful timidity in the face of an inferior enemy.
“There’s nothing in the posted article that talks about him being captured by the Iranians. If you are making the claim that he was captured, then provide proof of same.”
I don’t know what to tell you. take a deep breath and re-read what I wrote.
“Is it honorable to disregard orders and training?”
THESE orders and THIS training? Historically; YES.
“Is surrendering in the first place honorable (which current information indicates they were ordered to do).”
“Personally, I would have preferred the Brits start bombing and not stop until the hostages were released. But this author makes a judgment on what these individuals should have done without knowing them, what their specific orders were for after they were captured, or what they went through while being held captive.”
Derbyshire’s remarks, like mine are based upon tradition. Darbyshire, like myself, unerstands that the West is weakening. This is a proccess millions have observed and commented upon for a generation now. It didn’t start on the bridge of the Cornwall.
This break with good sense will cost far more lives in the end than any proper aggression that day against the Irainians could have.
We know what Iran is up to. We know what they have planned for us. We know that the leadership is as crazy as Hitler. Showing that sort of people weakness is suicidal.
Consider that the 19th century was the bloodiest that the world had seen—untill the 20th came along.
Now we begin the 21st on this auspicious note: As the 19th towered over the 18th in spilled blood and the 20th towered over the 19th, so will the 21st tower over the 20th.
Responses like the Cornwalls in the face of psychos like the iranians guarntees it. The Captain of the Cornwall should have done his duty THEN called Blighty.
Derbyshire and Peters are way out of line on this one. Both of them would be defecating in their pants for weeks if they were ever accosted — not even abducted — by a couple of hostile-looking teenagers on a New York City street corner.
Derbyshire and Peters are the kind of morons who wouldn't even have the courage to call a pre-adolescent boy a "wimp" to his face.
Derbyshire and Peters are the kind of morons who wouldn't even have the courage to call a pre-adolescent boy a "wimp" to his face.
“The Captain of the Cornwall should have done his duty THEN called Blighty.”
He (AND the reporter Ian Pannel) watched the Iran patrol craft approach the vessel the 15 had boarded, surely while in radio contact with the 15.
I would LOVE to hear what advisory and/or orders were given at this time to the 15, not to mention whatever went to and came from London.
Now, we are abandoning the GWOT. ... It's all part of the surrender folks.
That's right. It's important to keep things in perspective. In spite of Pres. Bush's resistance (or the personal opinions of folks like you and me) the western world is now engaged in the process of negotiating their surrender to Islam. It would be rather cruel to expect the simple foot soldiers, still deployed in remote places, to resist the victorious conquerers. In fact it would be an act of sour-grapes bitterness and a defiance and resistance to their own mother land's foreign policy of retreat.
Knowing that Ahmadinijed is basically seeking attention, I would have refused the head scarf and forced them to beat me, then their video propaganda would have been ruined. Of course, the media is going along and treating the whole thing as a British blunder, caused by Americans in Iraq, and the brit Sailors and Marines aid Iran by acting happy on tape. The brits are wonderful allies but I'm sorry they allowed themselves to be used like that.
This was a test. If this had been an actual multinational concern, you would have been instructed where to tune for news and official propaganda. This concludes this test of the Iranian Pseudodiplomacy System.
Not only was this a test of whether or not Iran will have to face the UK along with the US and Israel when all hell breaks loose, the UK failed the test. London blinked. And unless something major changes, we won’t be able to count on the UK when the balloon goes up.
review
It would have destroyed Iran’s attempt at propaganda.
I believe that, the Royal Marines go to boot camp/commando school for 33 weeks. They would not be easily broken.
Ah, so you aren't trying to claim that he ever faced what these individuals have. Then for him to claim what others should do when he has never done it himself (and there's no evidence that he even allowed himself to be in a position that would have put him at risk of being captured by the Iranians) is hypocritical.
THESE orders and THIS training? Historically; YES.
Please tell me what in history indicates that it would be a good idea for the people in this particular situation to disobey their orders.
Derbyshire’s remarks, like mine are based upon tradition.
The fact remains, neither you nor Derbyshire know these people, know what their orders were, nor know what they experienced while being held hostage.
This break with good sense will cost far more lives in the end than any proper aggression that day against the Irainians could have.
As you know, I agree that the Brits should have taken aggressive action. That's far different from saying that no matter what their government does or has ordered these individuals to do, they shouldn't have appeared on video.
I agree. If it turns out that cowardice was the main motivator, then their conduct most definately falls short and they should be court-martialled.
In answer to the attention seeking, all it takes is for one to fold then the enemy have their propaganda. In this incident, it seems to be the navy girl.
It made me sick to the stomach when I saw her wearing the headscarf, but I just still can’t shrug the thought that something just doesn’t feel right, it’s all too cosy. I just think that someone is being lured into conflict, whether it’s Iran or Britain, I don’t know....
Britain does have a track record of this type of luring, I remember reading about a British businessman during the mid-1700 or 1800s (my memory ain’t all that!!!). He was basically set up for murder in Tokyo so that the RN could sent a fleet and blow the crap out of them. He was sent as some kind of envoy and told that what were in fact dishonourable ways for the Japanese, were honourable. He dishonoured them and promptly had his head cut off, cue the RN.....
An elaborate ploy just to ensure that the British Navy exercised its power in the far east allowing trade routes.
Again, a year ago, 2 SAS soldiers were taken in by the Iraqi ‘police’ who were known to be running the local terrorist networks, apparently without putting up a fight, they handed over their weapons. The SAS lost a bit of face because it was unheard of SAS soldiers ‘surrendering’ so easily. The soldiers were quickly paraded by the terrorists and put on show, the SAS fellas were bandied from house to house and only when the Brit commanders thought the point of no return was near did they send in the Challenger tanks. The police station was destroyed as was the terrorist network, and the Brits knew exactly where to go to pick up the SAS fellas...
A little loss of face for big bounty!
Be interesting to see how this latest saga plays out though.......
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