Au Contraire, Moi FReeper FRiend!
Posted on 02/02/2007 12:23:59 PM PST by John Jorsett
Troops from the U.S. Army and Marine Corps are still complaining about the "inadequate stopping power" of the 5.56mm round used in the M-16 family of assault rifles. Last year, the army did a study of current 5.56mm M855 round, in response to complaints. Troops reported many reports where enemy fighters were hit with one or more M855 rounds and kept coming. The study confirmed that this happened, and discovered why. If the M855 bullet hits slender people at the right angle, and does not hit a bone, it goes right through. That will do some soft tissue damage, but nothing immediately incapacitating. The study examined other military and commercial 5.56mm rounds and found that none of them did the job any better. The study concluded that, if troops aimed higher, and fired two shots, they would have a better chance of dropping people right away. The report recommended more weapons training for the troops, so they will be better able to put two 5.56mm bullets where they will do enough damage to stop oncoming enemy troops. Marines got the same advice from their commanders. But infantrymen in the army and marines both continue to insist that the problem is not with their marksmanship, but with the 5.56mm bullet. Marines say they have used captured AK-47 rifles in combat, and found that the lower velocity, and larger, 7.62mm bullets fired by these weapons were more effective in taking down enemy troops.
The army study did not address complaints about long range shots (over 100 meters), or the need for ammo that is better a blasting through doors and walls. The army had been considering a switch of a larger (6.8mm) round, and the Special Forces has been testing such a round in the field. But a switch is apparently off the table at the moment. The army report was not well received by the troops, and there is still much grumbling in the ranks over the issue.
Au Contraire, Moi FReeper FRiend!
"Good point. Yet the round tumbles only when it hits something, as does a perfectly-spiralling football in mid-air. Some people think that the original M16A1 rifle made the rounds tumble as soon as they left the muzzle. But I remember pulling the targets at the rifle range on Parris Island in 1980 at 500 yards. The rounds made perfect small holes hitting the paper, and kicked up at least a foot of dust when they hit the sand pile behind the "butts"."
You are correct sir.
30-round mags exist on the commercial market, and some of them work very well. The M-14 is a great rifle - accurate and comfortable to shoot. And it's .308, which rocks.
I'm never disappointed at the knowledge and expertise on FR.
On another note:
If you regularly use the M-16 or a rifle that uses its magazines, I HIGHLY recommend the MagPul follower as a replacement for the old black or even the green "no tilt" follower. I've replaced my old training mag followers with their Gen II follower and it's an incomparable difference. Unlike the green ones, it's truly "no tilt".
No, they can't settle. Nothing is perfect, so there is perpetual tweaking of the tradeoffs.
Logistics is a major issue. If that "few extra micrograms" means something incompatable with the existing supply chain, it's VERY VERY (did I mention very?) expensive to make the change.
The "tumbling" is associated with FMJ ball rounds, which have trouble getting thru hard cover.
The steel-cored M855 "penetrator" rounds go thru hard cover much better ... resulting them going thru soft stuff like it wasn't there.
Yep.
And multiply by eleventy billion ;)
Retooling Lake City and Winchester would be a major undertaking. It would take years just to fill the supply lines.
My brother owned one of those until just a couple of months ago. It had become worth so much he just couldn't justify not selling it. On slow fire, that thing was surprisingly accurate at very long distance and was just what the doctor ordered for washing machines, refrigerators, engine blocks, and the like.
I've had soldiers tell me that the sound of the .50 cal gave them the confidence to drive on. Outstanding weapon, indeed!
I would go with this for such close-in, running around corners operations:
It fires an armor-piercing 5.7x28. That's not great for hard stopping. But It carries 50 rounds in a clip, and full-auto or burst is highly controllable. A soldier could easily put five rounds in the target accurately at 900 rpm. It's so controllable you can put all 50 rounds in a 10-inch group at 50 meters on full auto.
But now we're worried about the weight the soldier has to haul for the extra ammo. The FN-P90 weighs two pounds less than a M16, and ammo weighs about a pound for 50 rounds (a pound gets you about 30 for an M-16). You could haul an extra 100 rounds just for the weight difference in the weapons alone.
Anything further out, give me good-old 7.62mm. It might do a squad good to have a mix of this for personal fighting, and a couple of those new automatic shotguns they've developed to clear the area or blast through heavy protection, and a 7.62mm machine gun to get real friendly at range.
Also in part as a response to premature barrel burn-out with their longer-barrelled RPK74 Squad Automatic Weapon. The older 7,62x39mm M43 cartridge is of a slower velocity, and loses little in the difference between a 40 and a 45-round magazine in the older larger diameter caliber.
And, desiring to maintain ammunition and magazine interchangability within the squad [except for the platoon's PK machinegunner and SVD-equipped snipers, whose tools use the really old 7,62x54 rimmed cartridge developed in 1891] the older AKM is also frequently seen in the hands of troops who really expect to get shot at.
And then there's the neat little bullpup *Groza* shorty AK version available now....
I was hoping for the real thing - SIG 552 ;)
Let's hope they get the new forend and folding stock out there this summer and just maybe. My list is growing:
1. SIG 552/556
2. FS2000
3. FN SCAR (but we won't see a civie version for years, I think).
Not necessarily in that order.
Later, on I&I duty, we had some M-14's in our small armory. We took 'em out and had a blast shooting them.
I agree they're great weapons. I was just commenting that they are already at the limit of what I'd want to carry with a full 20-round magazine. A full 30-rounder inserted might be heavier than I would want. Just give me plenty of 20-rounders.
I'm in the process of selling some acreage, and when that happens, I might go buy some new gear, including a new Socom II carbine.
< }B^)
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