Turks blast Pope on eve of arrival (demands for apology over Crusades)

The star - European Bureau ^ | 11/27/06 | The Star

[Rurudyne]

N.B. - Muslims claim Jesus as a revered prophet in their religion. Yet, they do not accept Jesus own words when he says "the only way to the Father is through me...". I asked a world famous cleric this question when he was touring to calm down fears of the Christians. I asked how can he accept Jesus as a prophet yet reject Jesus own words, he refused to answer but his bodygaurd accused me of being a radical trying to foment hatred and rushed him out of the crowd. (I asked politely).

Actually, their "acceptance" of Jesus as a prophet amounts to an internal contradiction within its own context, a dilemma that Islam cannot resolve.

Muhammad clearly STATES that Jesus was a true prophet of Allah.

He even clearly STATES that Jesus was born of a virgin and she is named.

But he clearly implies that such a special prophet was somehow unable to select men to be his closest followers who would faithfully communicate his gospel to the world.

It is not the case that that a Muslim can assert – as many modern scholars attempt to do – that the apostles DID NOT write the New Testament but that it was written later by people "inventing" a religion much in the same way they ascribe the post-exile Jews "inventing" their own sacred history....

No, a Muslim cannot assert that the Jews at the time of Jesus were NOT a people with a literary habit with respect to religious things because the Koran prevents that assertion.

So what is left is that the apostles themselves and their immediate successors were the ones who corrupted the true gospel that Jesus had brought from Allah.

This is a classical dilemma.

Either Jesus is this special prophet AND he was unable to select faithful disciples.

... OR ...

Jesus is this special prophet AND he selected precisely the sorts of disciples he wanted KNOWING that they would do as Muslims assert.

Assume the former and Jesus becomes incompetent. Assume the latter and you may as well assert that Allah wants so many people to be apart from the true gospel.

There is a way to resolve this dilemma by taking neither of the invited means of attack ... but I don't think one could do so and remain a Muslim.

Previously, when I've point this out a Muslim wrote back this was nonsense; however, it is only nonsense if one accepts this premise of Islam, that the truth was perverted and lost.

Here's the issue: Jews were a literate people with a habit of writing on such matters as religion. The apostles were no different. Luke even states that numerous early Christians writers had set out to make a faithful recording of what had happened ... further, Luke clearly indicates that he used first person references for his text (even including Mary who is repeatedly described as storing up these things in her heart – or committing them to memory).

The point of writing something down is not to bring it to life but rather to cause it to become FIXED and IMMUTABLE ... to be what it is.

Thus for Islam to be respected one must ignore the dilemma imposed because Muhammad sought to give Jesus His props even as he insisted that His disciples somehow corrupted His teachings.

It is not nonsense to point out that Islam has, at its core, so glaring an inconsistency.

The disciples of the Rabbis don't have this problem because, recognizing Moses, they refuse to recognize Yeshua (His Jewish name tranliterated in Greek as "Jesus").

The disciples of Jesus don't have this problem because, recognizing both Moses and Yeshua, they have the whole ball of wax (especially if they are physically children of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob).

It is the disciples of Muhammad who have this problem. First because it was imposed upon them from the start, also because they are in a poor position to refute the antiquity of either Jewish or Christian text SINCE THEIR'S ARE MORE RECENT, and thirdly because they must allow that God was somehow incapable of preserving His revealed truth from human mendacity not once – but twice – even as they then turn around and claim that they have not lost or perverted the truth.

Neither Christians nor Rabbinical Jews have these problems because they do not claim that those whom they accept have ever had their teachings corrupted as Muhammad did.

This is really the crux of the issue: it is not that Muhammad came later that puts his disciples in this bind ... it is that Muhammad imposed a dilemma on them that they must ignore.

Only by closing their eyes and pretending that the dilemma isn't there does the appearance of the dilemma go away.

And these are the horns of the dilemma:

EITHER Jesus was incompetent and incapable of choosing faithful disciples.

OR Jesus was culpable in His selection of those disciples knowing, as a true prophet should, their character.

The NT clearly says that He knew the hearts of men and needed no one to tell Him what men were truly like. He announced even before hand that one of His disciples, one of the 12, was a devil. But in the context of the NT, THAT disciple was a necessary evil to deliver Him to a Roman cross at the appointed time. Please realize what He said about the one who betrayed Him, that it would have been better for him that he not be born. There is no stronger condemnation possible.

If Muhammad's teachings are so obviously flawed with respect to something as important as those who previously received the truth then why should anyone trust anything that he was reputed to have said?

As far as I can see the only possible solution to the dilemma (to avoid its horns) is to refute Muhammad's claims about Jesus and the Jews, which would probably lead to one of four courses of theological action:

1) Become the Islamic equivalent of a liberal church or synagogue where even though the proper words or on the door it's a theological free for all once inside. That wouldn't make them necessarily peaceful, only apostate.

2) Become a Christian.

3) Seek to convert to Judaism.

4) Simply cease to be a Muslim by becoming secular or else by adopting some other religious or theological tradition not mentioned my Muhammad.

[HOTTIEBOY]

One large English-language poster read, "Go home Pope" and showed the pontiff's face on the head of a pig, blood oozing from his mouth.

That wouldn't be anything like an image of a certain islamic icon with a bomb in his turban that the muslims rioted about, would it?

Where's the same outrage from Christians over this satirical message?

[sgtbono2002]

I have a feeling Muhammed has already been judged and is right now stoking the flames in boiler #3 in hell.

[Colorado Doug]

The Pope might consider apologizing for the failure to take Damascus to cut off the muslim hord during the first Crusade. Had that been done, we might not have had to deal with islam again today.

[Rurudyne]

In all fairness, there is a good chance that both the holder of the sign and the intended reader can understand English. The person in the picture may be ignorant of truth (being deceived by a false prophet), but that doesn't mean she's uneducated or dumb.

[reagan_fanatic]

One accused the Vatican of producing terror while another said, "Jesus is not the son of God, he is a prophet of Islam."

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)


Islam destroys souls, not saves them.

[Uncle Miltie]

The Crusades were a counterattack.

[Popman]

You guys are missing the most important sentence in the article

His main mission is to support Turkey's dwindling Christian communities and work to heal a 1,000-year-old rift with the Patriarchate of Constantinople, regarded by many as the spiritual leader of the world's 300 million Orthodox Christians.

We all know the Moozies are in perpetual rage over virtually anything

The Pope is lining up support for the ultimate ideologically show down between the modern Christian civilization and the primitive element of Islam

[No.6]

"I apologize to the Turkish people that the counter-offensive against Islamist violence, the Crusades, did not prove sufficient to keep the noble Turks free of Islam."

[Marysecretary]

One young man who spoke to two muslims in New York spoke in our end times Bible class yesterday. He says they are waiting for Jesus to come and mobilize all the Muslims and take vengeance on the Jews, Christians and America. They are so deluded. I pray Jesus will make Himself real to them soon. Many people in Iran and Iraq have come to know Him but they're afraid to tell anyone. How sad.

[Peter Libra]

From the text.

Tens of thousands of Turks have protested the Pope's visit to this Muslim country.....

I am optimistic.

The media seem to be on a bit of a tear about the "tens of thousands". I saw CTV (Canada) doing the same thing. An interviewer had that controlled, yet slight breathy statement, posed as a question. Assuming bad things might happen. Funny how the media do this.

I stand corrected but a Turkish gentleman,maybe an ambassador to Canada, replied. He spoke in measured tones. He said the numbers were inconsequential. He said it was expected that a minority would be out there demonstrating. I heard about 15,000 persons.

It is well known that people with an agenda, misstate numbers. I have the impression the MSM would just enjoy portraying a debacle in Istanbul. Nothing positive must make their day.

We shall see. Surely Turkey and it's secular way of life, has some merit. The Turkish military has clamped down hard on militant Islamists.

Prayers for the Pope.

[popdonnelly]

I'm sorry the Christians lost.

[TigerLikesRooster]

Re #2

Busy making virgins for suicide bombers.:-)

[bd476]

Rurudyne wrote: "In all fairness, there is a good chance that both the holder of the sign and the intended reader can understand English. The person in the picture may be ignorant of truth (being deceived by a false prophet), but that doesn't mean she's uneducated or dumb."

"In all fairness," Rurudyne, it is you who is asserting that a Turkish protester carrying an English sign in Istanbul, Turkey is "uneducated or dumb."

Turkey Travel Planner

"All students in Turkish schools study English, and some even learn it.

French, German and Arabic are also taught (and sometimes learned)."

Turkish Language Guide


The World Factbook: Turkey

"Languages: Turkish (official), Kurdish, Dimli (or Zaza), Azeri, Kabardian

note: there is also a substantial Gagauz population in the Europe part of Turkey"

The World Factbook

[GSlob]

Actually, in Huntington's concept, every civilization defines itself in the opposition to others: "THIS is what I am, as opposed to THAT which I am not".

[redgolum]

When the Turks return the Hagia Sophia, then maybe we can talk.

[Rurudyne]

Wait ... I thought I posted that there was a good chance that the person holding the sign KNEW English ("can understand English" to quote myself).

I was not the one suggesting that she did not understand the words on the sign she was holding up!

[karnage]

He can apologize for the Crusades right after every imam apologizes for what made them necessary in the first place.

[Aquinasfan]

You nailed it in #1.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

The Muslims started the crusades, why don't they apologize?

Better yet, why don't all the Muslims go back to Yathrib where they came from and quit stealing everyone else's land?