Posted on 11/16/2006 5:33:58 AM PST by Mr. Brightside
WASHINGTON -- Like many fellow Democratic politicians, Sen. Barack Obama is no stranger to the pulpit.
But in December, Obama will go where few progressive Democrats usually venture--to a large, conservative evangelical church that boasts a Sunday attendance of more than 20,000 people.
Even more unusual is that he'll attend at the invitation of megachurch Pastor Rick Warren, evangelical icon and author of the popular Christian book "The Purpose-Driven Life."
Aides to Obama say he will appear at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., on Dec. 1, World AIDS Day.
"Sen. Obama has a deep respect for Mr. Warren's commitment to fighting AIDS and poverty," said Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor.
While he was working on his latest book, "The Audacity of Hope," Obama asked Warren to help by reading one of his draft chapters. Warren issued the invitation to Obama to speak at the church next month.
The messages that Friday will focus on AIDS and HIV, a key area of ministry for Saddleback Church. While many conservative Christians have shied away from AIDS because of their discomfort with its connections to premarital sex and homosexuality, Warren and his wife, church co-founder Kay Warren, have been vocal advocates for patients living with the disease.
Shortly before the release of his latest book, Obama issued a call to progressives to shed bias against religious people and to recognize "overlapping values."
(Excerpt) Read more at chicagotribune.com ...
In the words of Flannery O'Connor. "When you are speaking to the deaf, you scream."
It would kinder and more intelligent to use sign language.
The saving power of Jesus Christ is the only cure, the only hope...Any other attempted cure, or offered hope, will be like putting a Band Aid on a severed artery.
Will Obama offer the Gospel of Jesus Christ to Saddleback and those afflicted with HIV/AIDS?
Given his support of homosexuality, sadly, it does not appear that he will. How can he support the riskiest behavior and leading cause of the spread of HIV/AIDS and be asked to speak on the subject?
Due to his stance, he has no credility, or authority, on the subject.
"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?...Therefore come out from them and be separate,..." (2 Corinthians 6:14-17)
Warren, and Saddleback, should know better.
But we know that..."Of them the proverbs are true: 'A dog returns to its vomit,' and, 'A sow that is washed goes back to he wallowing in the mud'." (2 Peter 2:22)...It may just, possibly, be their very nature.
Sunsong wrote: "If you believe that someone is acting in a way that is wrong do what you can to educate them. No one becomes a better person by being treated cruelly."
In response: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to...You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. Woe toy you, blind guides!...You blind fools!...You blind men!...You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel...Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside will be clean...You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones...You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" (Jesus, Matthew 23:15-33)
"holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme." (Paul, 1 Timothy 1:19-20)
A quote from Peter is above-mentioned.
I will take the examples of Jesus, Paul and Peter over the admonitions of one who does not claim Christ (or one who refuses to listen to "dogma" - otherwise known as Biblical Truth).
"As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer...They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm." (1 Timothy 1:3-6)
Some, like those that outright reject Truth, need to be refuted...not just educated.
Apparently Senator Brownback will speak at this conference as well. The author of this article has done us no service by glossing over the fact that Saddleback is hosting this AIDS Conference and that Obama is not speaking on Sunday as some kind of guest pastor. I feel bad for railing on him so bad now.
Well said, farmer18th.
Your first statement is easily refuted because suffering has been alleviated by people who have never heard of Jesus.
A friend was pointing out to me the similarity of extremist Christians and Muslims. Both believe that if you do not accept their book and their dogma you will be tortured in hell for eternity. The Islamists go a step farther and say, "why wait for the infidel to die - we will torture and kill them now."
God is Love. You show that you have no idea of Love with this way too long post. Please read the post saying that Sen Brownback will be speaking at the same conference as Obama and they will not be speaking from the pulpit.
Then let's see if you have the integrity to apologize?
You are wrong. Kindness reaches people. You may want to reflect on why the thought of kindness puts you to sleep!! Do you associate kindness, love, compassion, gratitude etc with weakness?
Cruelty hurts people. One does not need to be cruel to those who are criminal or immoral. They can be arrested without being beaten or spit on. They can be incarcerated without cruelty.
You continue to argue for cruelty and I will continue to argue for kindness. Screaming at the deaf is not only cruel - it is stupid. Are you really wanting to present Christianity as a cruel religion?
Why don't you read the post about what this AIDS conference really is and then come back and apologize for all the hurtful things you have said.
Whatever relief has been offered in the alleviation of suffering, apart from the relief that faith in Jesus Christ permanently provides, is fleeting and temporary.
Mean?
I just quoted what Scripture said.
Mean is twisting the life-saving Gospel truth; Mean is failing to tell the Gospel truth; Mean is strapping a suicide bomb on and detonating it in a market full of men, women and children.
Telling the Truth isn't mean (If you touch the hot stove, you'll get burned; If you drink that poison, you'll get sick; If you walk off that cliff, you'll die; If you die without faith in Christ, you will spend eternity in hell).
There is a big difference between the two books, btw...The Bible is the inspired Word of God as evidenced by manuscripts, archeology and fulfilled prophecies. There is no other "book" like it.
As to Sen. Brownback speaking (and both not from the pulpit) - If he is an unbeliever, pro-abortion supporter of the homosexual agenda (or one of the three), then the same applies to him, as well.
Sunsong said: God is Love.
Answer: That is your dogma and what is the evidence for your faith in such (It is only partially true, btw, as love is but one attribute of God. He is also equally just, among other attributes)?
And isn't it ironic when someone claims that education is the cure for social ills and then complains about the length/depth of an educating response...So is it ignorance or education that you support?
By the way...It isn't even that long of a post (especially when using raygun as a standard).
Yes, easily refuted. I would suggest that you have no idea what you are talking about when you talk of *lasting* - of * eternity*. Are you really claiming to *understand* eternity? There are kind and good people in this world helping others, alleviating suffering and they have never heard of Jesus.
Mean? Good grief. Where have you been? Please read the posts that lead up to this. Words have meaning. Do you agree? And condemnation - hurts.
It is your opinion that your book is inspired and the Muslims book is not. But they would disagree. They believe as furvently as you do that they have the truth and that anyone who doesn't agree with their book and their interpretation of their book will burn in hell.
God is Love. How do I know? I experience the Love of God. I see the results of God's Love.
Btw, before you can *educate* me you need to convince me that you have something worthwhile to say. It's not rocket science. Those fanatics who try to shame and belittle and condemn others are not teaching or educating. If you want to be a good teacher - be a good example - and start by being kind and being loving.
Reply: That wouldn't be a condemning, or judgemental, or hateful, or hurtful and/or unloving response...would it?
Jesus claimed to be God. (Luke 9:19-21)
Jesus said that He would be killed and raised again on the third day. (Luke 9:19-21)
Jesus said: "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him, who after killing the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." (Luke 12:5)
Given this, would you consider Jesus a fanatic too?
You believe everything that is truthful is cruel. I don't. Let me tell you some truthful statements, and you can tell me whether you think they are cruel or not:
Dere Obama supports the continued right of women to abort their own children and kill them. He deserves no position of teaching or instruction or panel participation--Sunday, Monday, midnight or 10 AM--in any Christian church. You call that cruel. I call that the truth. If my child were to walk into that church and witness people listen to this justifier of murder, I would be properly outraged. That is truthful, not cruel.
If you think it's cruel to tell the truth, then you have a problem with the truth.
I would suggest that you go back and reread what I have said to you. If you do not understand it then quote me what you do not understand and I will try to re-explain it to you.
I believe that cruelty is cruel and that there is too much cruelty in this world. You have been arguing in favor of cruelty. Saying essentially that people deserve to be treated cruelly if they do not believe what you believe. Isn't that your position?
I have said so many times that when you condemn someone (you the individual - not government) - when you condemn someone you hurt them. Do you understand what I am saying there.
Would you agree that truth is what is changeless, eternal and invulnerable?
How you tell the truth matters. The ends do not justify the means. Do you understand that?
Reply: That wouldn't be a condemning, or judgemental, or hateful, or hurtful and/or unloving response...would it?
No, it would be feedback. If I were to condemn you I would call you other names - names that would be intented to hurt you and I might say that I condemn you - I might choose to say it quite directly.
It is not my place to condemn you. I am not God. Leave to God such things as condemnation, vengence etc.
As to your question do I consider Jesus a fanatic. No, I don't.
What is your point in writing to me? What are you trying to accomplish here.
Do you know who Sen Brownback is? And if not, why not?
The problem is there is no "gentle" way to tell someone they condone murder.
First you need to understand where they are coming from - what they believe. And then you need to explain, kindly, why you have the truth and educate them. But you need to really have the truth. Otherwise you will lose credibiltiy for a long time.
In Matthew 23, when Jesus talked in a "mean and condemning" way to the pharisees, was he anything less than the master teacher? Did those words disqualify him as a teacher?
The same question of the Apostle Paul and Peter...Were they disqualified as teachers because of their "mean and condemning" words?
Sunsong asked: Are you really claiming to *understand eternity*?
Reply: "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgement. So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." (Hebrews 9:27-28)
And
"If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)
And
"I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Revelation 21:22-27)
Sunsong said: "And condemnation - hurts."
Reply: Eternity without faith in Jesus Christ hurts worse (John 3:16 holds the answer though)!
"Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)
As Jesus said to the pharisees, "These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:40)
Experience-based faith?
How do you test to know if your experiencing God (the true God)? Does your individual experience trump the truth of Scripture? If it does, then what is the Bible?
Why don't you consider Jesus a "fanatic"...I just repeated what He and his disciples said?
Does your individual experience trump the truth of Scripture? If it does, then what is the Bible?
Of course. The Bible is a book as is the Koran.
Are all realities existing simultaneously?
Do all potentials exist side by side?
We know nothing about reality Right now it all comes through our senses – through sense organs
We’re only aware of 2,000 bits of info our brain is processing
What is reality? Is it even knowable? Is reality probability?
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