Polish MEP calls for ‘scholarly debate’ on evolution

Radio Polonia ^ | Oct 16, 2006

[JoAnka]

Polish MEP calls for ‘scholarly debate’ on evolution

Polish European Parliament deputy and biology professor, Maciej Giertych, is calling for an end to the monopoly of Darwinian theory in the teaching of evolution in schools.

'I am a scientist, I am a geneticist, my specialty is population genetics and I reject the theory of evolution on the basis of the field of science I represent. I find that in many fields of science there are scientists who reject the theory of evolution because in their fields they also find evidence against the theory.’ says MEP Maciej Giertych.

For the past decades, biology classes in Poland and around the world have focused practically exclusively on Darwinian theory when tackling the subject of evolution. Prof. Giertych and his colleagues see room for reform in this respect.

'Schools are teaching evolution as a fact and there seems to be very little reference to new research that would either support or negate the theory of evolution. There is so much new evidence that is being simply ignored by the school textbooks.’

But when last week in the European Parliament Giertych and a group of non-Darwinian scientists organized a conference, a whiff of controversy was in the air. Some commentators were quick to label Giertych a religious bigot, ridicule his views and boldly question his competence. Prof. Kielan-Jaworowska:

'There are people who still believe that not the earth is going round the sun but the sun round the earth. His views have nothing to do with science; I would not call him a scientist. We are deeply ashamed that he got the title of a professor and that he is a biologist.'

But not everyone feels that ideology on the verge of religious bigotry is on Giertych's side of the debate. Dr Otto Neuman of the Polish Creationist Society:

'That is a heritage of communism when evolutionary doctrines were taught in schools like a kind of religion.'

Meanwhile Giertych and his non-Darwinian colleagues say they want to stay away from the emotional dispute and focus on an honest scholarly debate in the spirit of academic freedom. A debate, which, they feel, should lead to biology classes being more diverse and open to newest findings.

'The proponents of the theory of evolution are not prepared to sit down and look at the evidence and present their own evidence for the theory of evolution. Debates on the subject immediately develop into philosophical conflict, a lot of emotions are involved and a tendency to label the other side as ignorant, as motivated ideologically - whereas what is needed is a serious scientific debate and confrontation of results.'

Whether a debate is possible, remains to be seen. First, scholars on both sides must recognize each other as partners. And that is still to be achieved. Prof. Kielan-Jaworowska again:

'I don't think scientific discussion with him is possible.'

In response to such attitudes the non-Darwinian side of the conflict is calling for less prejudice and more access to public debate. Prof. Giertych again:

'Since the opponents of the theory of evolution are finding evidence against it, we are struggling to get this into the public domain. We want the media and the textbooks to recognize the fact that there exists empirical evidence against the theory of evolution.'

The liberal archbishop Życiński of Lublin, has criticized Prof. Giertych's call for scholarly debate. However the official Catholic Church position on the subject was reiterated by the late Polish Pope, John Paul II, who in a 1996 statement to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences said, "fresh knowledge leads to recognition of more than one hypothesis in the theory of evolution."

[taxesareforever]

All I can say is there are some who have just too much time on their hands.

[Virginia-American]

... How many PHD degrees were awarded on the PiltDown Man fraud before it was discovered? 100? 500? who can say for sure without going to each University and doing the historical research. A conservative estimate would be at least 100 ...

And what would that "conservative estimate" be based on? Can you actually produce evidence for, say, 5 such PhDs?

[VadeRetro]

I'd like to see evidence that anyone anywhere ever got a PhD on a specific fossil.

"What was your degree in, Doctor?"

"Lake Turkana Boy."

"You mean, that was your thesis topic, right? You did some investigation relating to Lake Turkana Boy?"

"No, I have a degree in Lake Turkana Boy. I don't find it very useful."

[VadeRetro]

Apparently the 500 theses thing is an old creo canard. This web site debunks it nicely.

http://www.tiac.net/~cri_a/piltdown/piltdown.html#doctoral_theses.

In part it concludes:

The only known PhD thesis discussing the Piltdown hoax is

ANCESTORS OR ABERRANTS: STUDIES IN THE HISTORY OF AMERICAN PALEOANTHROPOLOGY, 1915-1940 (HUMAN EVOLUTION) by DESIMONE, ALFRED AUGUST, JR., PHD UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS, 1986, 802 pages AAT 8612030

which was written 30 years after the hoax had been exposed; part of the discussion focuses on the impact of the hoax on American paleontology in the early twentieth century.

Kudos to the banned (from FR) Carolina_Guitarman for pointing this out to me today!

[Dimensio]

You floated this before and it sank.

I do not believe that it was the poster to whom you are responding who made this claim previously. Rather, a different FReeper creationist lied repeatedly in claiming that "over 500 doctoral dissertations" were written about Piltdown Man, then steadfastly refused to provide any evidence for his assertion and handwaved away all evidence that contradicted his claim. I do recall, however, that the poster to whom you are responding did join in supporting that particular creationist's lies despite the fact that all evidence showed that the claim that "over 500 doctoral dissertations" were written on Piltdown Man was a lie.

[VadeRetro]

It can be confusing sorting out individual freeper hobbyhorses from infrequently mentioned items from the cult literature. I remembered the discussion but not the specifics of dramatis personae.

[Dimensio]

Keep in mind that it is not the habit of the poster to whom you responded to initiate any specific significant claims. Rather, he tends to make vague, unsubstantiated assertions of his own, and lends words of encouragement to other creationists, frequently after the particular creationist's claims have been exposed as false. The poster to whom you responded will never, however, provide any evidence that the refutations to creationist claims are false; rather, he merely asserts that the refutations are false and arrogantly expects that his unsubstantiated assertions are to be accepted without question.

[VadeRetro]

... the banned (from FR) Carolina_Guitarman ...

[eleni121]

Don't ping me with your internal infernal Darwinoid crap.

I am not interested in looney tunes theories of the 19th century with fascist inhuman implications for the 21st.

Got it?

[Dimensio]

I am not interested in looney tunes theories of the 19th century with fascist inhuman implications for the 21st.

I was not discussing any theory that has "facist implications" and in fact I am unaware of the existence of any such theory. I was referring to an event in the past where you repeatedly lied. As I was referencing you, I pinged you out of courtesy.

[eleni121]

Let me repeat Oh follower of the Darwinoid cult:

I am not interested in looney tunes theories of the 19th century with fascist inhuman implications for the 21st.

I should add the 20th century...but more damage to be done to humanity in this century as well.

[Dimensio]

As no one here is discussing a "looney tunes" theory, nor is there a discussion of a theory with any fascist implications at all, your response is a non-sequitur. I was merely making reference to your previous claim that "over 500 doctoral dissertations" were written about Piltdown man and the fact that you were lying when you made that claim.

[eleni121]

The only looney tunes theory being discussed is darwinoid theories practiced by various and sundry fascists and commies like Sanger/Hitler/Lenin/ and our contemporary "esteemed" Dr Frankenstein fetal cell/genetic manipulators ad nausea.

All the dissertations in the world will not make a wrong evil thing right. Proof of assertion is the tool of the propagandist...and it appears "science" is replete with them these days.

Got it bud?

[Dimensio]

The only looney tunes theory being discussed is darwinoid theories practiced by various and sundry fascists and commies like Sanger/Hitler/Lenin/ and our contemporary "esteemed" Dr Frankenstein fetal cell/genetic manipulators ad nausea.

Again, no such theory is being discussed here. The topic of this discussion is the theory of evolution. I do not know of what "theory" you claim to reference, but it is not and has not been the subject of discussion.

All the dissertations in the world will not make a wrong evil thing right.

This has no relevance to my statement. I referred only to an incident in the past where you lied repeatedly, and pinged you out of courtesy as you were the liar in question.

Got it bud?

Your statements have no relevance to my reference.

[eleni121]

I'll make things easier for you by allowing you to have a shallow, thoughtless and bizarre visit with your bad self.

Ciao 'noid.

[Dimensio]

If you had no response to the fact that you lied in the past, I do not understand why you expended the energy to post in this discussion at all. I merely wished to make you aware that I was referencing your previous lies, as a courtesy to you. Insulting me is not an appropriate response to this.

[tacticalogic]

I demand that UGGism be presented alongside the crumbling, demolished theory of evolution.

And so begins the Designer Wars.

[RunningWolf]

Vade, this demented character on your side (who wont even post to me directly) has a pretty obscure and bizarre notion of what lie and lying is, especially as to the subject of toe.

It seems in her world she simply declares a statement false and then if one repeats it after that now they are a liar because she has already ‘shown them the truth’ I think I got that right but it is such a tight circular distorted logic that she operates hidden behind a screen of inference and demands that it is hard to pin her down on it. And when she does see that she is being caught out she will simply abandon the thread to repeat her attacks on a new target.

The gal lives in a dream world if she believes that 'people have been shown other wise' on most everything she asserts, which is very little when you get down to it.

Also for some reason it seems his obsession to make everyone 'a liar' that she senses does not buy into her beliefs.

Now if we go back to that thread where ever it is, as far as I can recall I was ready to deliver the evidence as long as I got the evos to put themselves out there with statements they could be held accountable to, and that is when all the hedging, back pedaling, and discounting of whole the PiltDown Man thesis issue began.

If nothing else the demented tag team of evo weasels are very adept at making relentless demands, twisting and distorting the argument and/or the other persons words, and being very difficult to pin them down in a direct manner.

When Pilt Down Man hit the world of evolutionary theory, it rocked their world, it was hailed as the missing link of Ape to Man, and the biggest names of TOE in England Europe and the USA bought into to it. It was in the Encyclopedia Britannica up to the year 1953, all the text books had to be re written after it was finally debunked.

If this character is going to call me a liar on this though, I would at least like to see evidence from her as why no doctoral thesis at all would have been written on such a earth shattering (at the time) find.

W.

[ml1954]

Clueless As Usual Placemarker

[RunningWolf]

Oh sorry forgot to get my ping list in there for you.

Placemarker Ping List A courtesy 'placemarker ping' service for everytime I might contemplate making a post so all my evo fans can get their 'placemarkers' in

You have been added to this courtesy ping list by way of demonstrating an interest in my posts by use of the 'Message in a Placemarker' and/or numerous sidebar conversations about 'Wolf To assist beginners: But it's "just a placemarker", Evos are Troll's Toolkit, and how to marginalize science with religious fanaticism about the monkey god of darwinist ideology.

W.

Placemarker Ping List A courtesy 'placemarker ping' service for everytime I might contemplate making a post so all my evo fans can get their 'placemarkers' in

You have been added to this courtesy ping list by way of demonstrating an interest in my posts by use of the 'Message in a Placemarker' and/or numerous sidebar conversations about 'Wolf To assist beginners: But it's "just a placemarker", Evos are Troll's Toolkit, and how to marginalize science with religious fanaticism about the monkey god of darwinist ideology.