Posted on 10/09/2006 8:53:29 PM PDT by SirLinksalot
Edited on 10/09/2006 9:00:42 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]
To Catholics of generations past, baptism wasn't something to be deferred until a convenient time, because the souls of infants who died without it were thought to be consigned to something other than heaven. Limbo.
Not quite heaven, not nearly hell, it was regarded as a place of eternal happiness that fell just short of paradise, reserved for unbaptized children and righteous souls who lived before Christ.
(Excerpt) Read more at chicagotribune.com ...
"And the Word became flesh…"
Who can turn it into words?
I hate being in limbo over limbo. :-) (It's late here.)
Oh. Well, that settles it then. doc1019 has the answer folks. No need to look further.
What was that about an infallible Pope?
While the newsies are unable or unwilling to provide a reasonably accurate or complete account of what has already happened (notoriously back in 2000 announcing the the polls closed in Florida while in part of the state they had almost an hour left before they closed), they have now branched out to saying tht stuff will happen, which later turns out not to happen.
But THEY are the NEWS, protected by the First Amendment and above the laws of common folk, while we are the ignorant. Okay then.
The devotees of Rome have always been a pretentious lot. No wonder they engendered the Protestant response. But perhaps both have driven themselves off The Way into the ditch, albeit on opposite sides, and their path back onto The Way is lit by the Eastern Orthodox brethren:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/
The "inquirers" pages have been set up as a missionary effort to provide information to non-Orthodox Christians who are interested in Holy Orthodoxy. These pages should be considered as supplements to the pages in the General Information section of the site.
I also provide some "convert testimonies " by those who have "made the journey." I have not written my own "journey story." I will only say briefly that I converted to Orthodoxy from a varied Protestant background after being introduced to it during a nine month stay at the Philadelphia Theological Seminary of the Reformed Episcopal Church. Before becoming Anglican I had been in the evangelical charismatic tradition for many years. I then discovered Calvinism, joining the Presbyterian confession for a few years until I was introduced to liturgy, the "sacramental worldview," and catholic ideas in general—mainly through the reading of Tom Howard's book Evangelical Is Not Enough: Worship of God in Liturgy and Sacrament. After thoroughly studying Orthodox theology and Church history at seminary, as well as experiencing the worship and prayer life of the Orthodox Church, I became convinced that it was the fullest and most pure expression of the apostolic Christian faith I could find. I believe it is the true, ancient Church—the very criterion of Christianity.
The key question "What is the Church?" is what drove my own journey. Basically, as my understanding of how the Church has always viewed Herself since the time of the Apostles grew, I became convinced that I could no longer remain a Protestant. This is briefly summarized in my response to Dan Clendenin's article in the January 6, 1997 issue of Christianity Today entitled "Why I'm Not Orthodox." At the time, the most important book I read during what I call my "intellectual pilgrimage" (the journey to Orthodoxy being one of both heart and mind) was Yves Congars' monumental Tradition and Traditions (a Roman Catholic work, though heavily influenced by the Eastern Church Fathers). The reason that it was so important is that it caused a "paradigm-shift" in the way I viewed Truth, its preservation, and its "handing down" (or in the Greek, paradosis). However, due to subsequent reading after becoming Orthodox, I now recommend that an inquirer first read the books listed in the section on Holy Tradition.
You may notice that I include many articles on the concept of the Church. This is because She is the "pillar and ground of the Truth" (1 Timothy 3:15—a verse which was always sidestepped or misunderstood in my Protestant experience). For more on why I emphasize the Church see my essay "The Church Is Visible and One".
(Most of the references are linked in the original post.)
Well, the language of Tartarus, of course, since those are the "words" the NT writers had, but the Zorastrian "Hell" and the Hindu "Demon Realm" aren't all that distinguishible except in the Zorastrian version there's only one "Demon".
?
Present me with Biblical references to purgatory! I would prefer them instead of your snide comments. As to the infallibility remark … For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) … no one is infallible me, you, the Pope, no one.
I only know what the Bible tells me, and because it is the word of God, it and it alone is infallible.
Now if the pope would just announce that the least common denominator doesn't exist, he'd save millions of kids from having to waste hours of their time looking for it.
That at any rate is clear. For example, you think that the doctrine of Papal infallibility means we don't think the Pope is a sinner. So you don't know what we think.
As for the rest, if you really want the texts, look around this thread. Somebody else put up some.
I'm always looking for the rare Protestant that will argue with what the Church actually teaches instead of the traditional mischaracterizations.
Well, gotta go. It's time for me to worship the Virgin Mary ....
Which is quite impressive since its not easy for a guy that died in 1546 to be figuring things out in 1966. ;-)
I don’t care much what any church teaches, I only care what God’s word says. I was raised a Catholic in a strong Irish Catholic family, so I know what the “Church” teaches. Many years ago, I decided to find out what the Bible had to say about some of the more controversial precepts of the Catholic Church. Didn’t take much serious study before I realized that Martin Luther (for the most part) had gotten it right.
I'm sorry, but that just does not follow. There are plenty of "Strong" Catholics" who don't do dogmatics. Regrettably, there's no connection between being brought up in a "strong Catholic family" and knowing what the Church teaches. And if you think that citing a text about how people have sinned shows that papal infallibility is not true, you've only shown that you don't understand Catholic teaching on the papacy. There's no teaching or even cultural (as opposed to "sacred") tradition that Popes are without sin.
Funny thing. I was brought up protestant, was ordained after a Masters degree in Divinity, and, while my first studies of Scripture seemed to support the basic Protestant notions, "upon further review" I found there was a stronger support for Catholicism. I guess the argument from authority isn't going to work here.
And I will not hold my breath waiting for Biblical proof of Papal infallibility.
The art of debate is not my strong suit, so I will give you the last word if you want and hope we can agree to disagree and part smiling. By the way, I am also an ordained minister (Baptist). Ordained in 1980 and completed my DD degree in 1995.
The Kennedy clan in Hyannisport makes the same claim. They were poorly catechized too.
You no doubt share Luthers' devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary and are intimately familiar with his numerous teachings and sermons about her. How about his book "The Jews and Their Lies"? You want to rely on that, chapter and verse, as well?
The Hell you say!
Yo, Fr. Martin Luther, a respected theologian of the Augustinian order, was no dummy. Even the last coupla Popes admitted that. Just send over the Bishop of Rome's cut of the collections, give back the deeds to a coupla churches, and these theological points, which the Popes have admitted are valid, will be smoothed over. Capito?
O yea, and stop making a big fuss over it, OK?
I worship God, and pray to Him only. And if you read my post #73, you will see that I said “I realized that Martin Luther (for the most part) had gotten it right.” Notice that I said … “for the most part”. Reading with comprehension is our friend.
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