Posted on 09/20/2006 3:54:59 AM PDT by excludethis
Thailand must negotiate with leaders of an ethnic Malay Muslim separatist insurgency if it wants to end bloodshed in its troubled Muslim-majority southern provinces, the country’s army chief said on Friday.
General Sondhi Boonyaratkalin said the violence, which has claimed more than 1,500 lives, would not be quelled if authorities only arrested the foot-soldiers of the militancy, but refused to talk to its instigators. “It is necessary to talk to make lasting peace,” Gen Sondhi, the first Muslim to head the Thai army, told Thai journalists on Friday.
ADVERTISEMENT The appeal for talks with insurgents came a day after bombs in 22 banks across the province of Yala exploded almost simultaneously, killing a retired official, and injuring 28 people.
The highly co-ordinated attacks on the banks, including two state-owned Islamic banks, demonstrated the militants’ rising technical capacity, and their willingness to strike at the foundations of the economy of the region, an ethnic Malay Muslim-majority enclave in Buddhist-majority Thailand.
“Nothing is spared,” said Sunai Phasuk, a political analyst with Human Rights Watch. “So far, they have targeted administrative structures, security forces, law enforcement, educational structures, and cultural structures, like Buddhist monks. Now they attack the economic structure, which means nothing put in place by the Thai state is accepted.”
Since the renewed flare-up in January 2004 of a decades-old separatist insurgency, Thaksin Shinawatra, the prime minister, has promised to shower the troubled region with money to accelerate economic growth, while also imposing a state of emergency that allows security forces to use harsh measures to crack down on suspected militants.
Mr Thaksin has, in public, staunchly refused to engage in negotiations to end the long-standing conflict, which has at its roots resistance by ethnic Malay Muslims against forcible assimilation into the Thai state, and resentment at discrimination against them in jobs and education.
Yet behind the scenes, some Thai officials have been quietly engaging over the last year with “certain individuals” – including prominent southern Thai Muslims in political exile – who are seen as potentially able to influence the insurgents.
“The army has been trying to talk with the intellectual leaders of the militant groups,” Mr Sunai said.
However, Mr Sunai said negotiations still faced formidable obstacles, including ensuring that those southern Thai Muslims in contact with officials could actually exert influence on the ground.
Is that some sort of new Conservative dogma....?????
There were other ways to skin this cat, and now there is likely no way, until they get angry enough to demand elections again.
In the interim, the opposition forces will be spared, and the fun, graft and corruption simply changes hands.
It takes time for a democracy to come into it's own, and Thai democracy's are never given that time.
It seems someone is pulling someones legs internationally, and that would be the U.S.
I would hope they will not fall for this crap again with taxpayer dollars, and trade deals.
Time to fold our tents, and let them swirl down the drain. Then maybe someone will understand.
HUAH.
This muz will come out on top. And get his constitutional change.
Interesting to know you still haven't bothered looking into the facts yet. They have already announced plans for new elections.
The general who staged this coup is a Muslim?
To prhase it so is to miss the point entirely, for it is not at the surface but below that there is equivalency. In the same way that some hear "Halliburton" proximate to a phrase like "government contract", assume that evil is very definitely afoot, and cry out, "HALLIBURTON!", too many hear "Muslim" in the same paragraph as a word like "coup", assume that evil is very definitely afoot, and cry out, "A MUSLIM!"
This does not equate Halliburton and Muslims; it equates the knee-jerk reactions and possible intellectual vacuity of the criers in both camps. While such is to be expected at DU, I would very much hope the citizens here would make the effort to achieve a far higher plane of discourse.
General Sondhi is Muslim, but everyone else involved is Buddhist.
Despite what you've read from BOTH sides in this thread, nobody is entirely sure what the long term ramifications of the Thai Coup will be. General Sondhi is a Muslim, but he has generally been an Army man first and a Muslim second, plus the vast majority of his co-conspirators in the Coup are Buddhists. He also has the strong support of the King, who would be VERY unlikely to support Sondhi unless he was virtually certain that they were on the same side.
However, there are legitimate concerns at the CIA and at certain levels of the State Department that the Coup is in fact a step backwards in Thailand's commitment to the War n Terror. There are, as usual, two factions in the State Department about this...the so-called realists, left and right, versus the neo-conservatives.
The normally blunt Bish Administration has put out extremely mixed messages on their response to this Coup. First, they made some vague statement about respecting Democracy, taking a much softer view of the Coup than allies like Australia and England. Then, they sounded more anti-Coup yesterday. It's very, very rare that Bush "tiptoes" an issue, so that gives you some idea how much uncertainty revolves around this issue.
The bottom line is that it may be incorrect to assume that because Sondhi is a Muslim, this is a Muslim attempt to subtly steal power in Thailand...but by the same token, anyone who dismisses this as 100% about local/national issues with no international implications is simply not yet living in the 21st Century.
The facts here suggest that the Coup is more about internal politics and has nothing to do with the Global Islamic movement, but this is not 100% certain and we may not know for sure for quite some time. Far too many people are living in that post-Cold War, pre-9/11 fog ,where events are explained away along economic or internal political lines with little or no regard to global politics. For those who dismiss posters in this thread as "Muslim bashers" or "paranoid" I would tell you that it is YOU who has put your head in the sand and has not recognized that we have moved into another bi-polar World, only this time, it's not Capitalism vs. Communism...it's Western Culture vs. Islamic Faith, and ALL events everywhere will have some level of implication to this ongoing struggle which could last for much or all of the 21st Century.
> Sorry ....I just don't support military coup's <
I agree with you on wholeheartedly that point.
And if I could have had my druthers, there would have been no coup in Thailand. I think the coup was a real pity, since the Kingdom has otherwise seemed to be on the road to a workably democratic style of government since 1992.
Moreover, it's a fact that Thaksin has been genuinely and enthusiastically supported by the predominantly rural voters of the north and northeast. If an honest vote were possible in Thailand, there's at least a 50-50 chance that his "Thai Rak Thai" party would win. And if it were up to me, I would have given them the chance at the polls in October.
Actually, I've never liked Thaksin due to his wacky economic ideas and his autocratic style. But still I disagree with our colleague Killjoy and those of his Bangkok acquaintances who have expresed favorable opinions on the coup, because I had hoped for Thailand to continue its fledging steps toward a democratic polity.
That being said however, Killjoy and other well-informed posters on this thread are 100% correct on the following:
(1) the coup had nothing to do with religion,
(2) it was basically the result of a long-simmering power struggle between Thaksin and certain rivals who are 99% Buddhists,
(3) there's absolutely a ZERO chance of significant Muslim influence on the Thai government, and
(4) Thailand has been and will remain the USA's best friend in the region.
Now let's get back to worrying about serious problems like Iran's N-bomb ambitions and the traitorous behavior of McPain-cum-Graham-the-Cracker.
Oh yeah........October 2007........
This is to believed when it happens. Apparently the U.S. diplomatic corps is viewing the announcement with a bit of incredulity as well. They have suspended a number of planned trade exchanges and the like until the Thai constitution is reestablished as law. My guess is that it won't happen anytime soon.
I find it interesting that you don't question any aspect of this, and think it is a great idea.
The fact is, it is never a great idea to overthrow a democracy (such as it was) in favor of what is essentially a dictatorship with support from someone who calls himself a King. This sort of governance does not bode well for Thailand's future. Apparently the public is fine with it. So I'll leave it there. I'll leave it with no Constitution and only a hope and prayer that the new dictator is a benevolent and kind man, where all these things in a democracy are a matter of rights and depend NOT on the person..
It does not sound like much of a improvement to me.
What I caught flack for on this thread was the recent (last two years) growing relationship with Iran. Laying religion aside, the relationship is my point. American influences in Thailand are the reasons behind the push by Iran, and this coup may be related indirectly. Iran has agents working in many places to destabilize relationships with the West, and may well be starting to fund the insurgency that according to some observers, resulted in this coup.
No, religion is not the problem directly. And no, I don't think the relationships with the U.S. are as safe as you indicate. I think there is a lot of competition for that relationship.
Just because this guy is a Muslim, is not a problem, unless there is a special relationship, a promise of funds, and all the power that comes with it from a country that wishes to undermine the U.S. and the world.
The King may be just a ignorant pawn in a chess game. As are the Thai people.
Time will tell the tale. The U.S. Authorities are definitely worried and you can see this worry in their commentary on this coup. There is a real war going on, and we are gradually losing our influence over it. Thailand is one domino of many....
> The facts here suggest that the Coup is more about internal politics and has nothing to do with the Global Islamic movement, but this is not 100% certain <
Well, then let's say it's 99.9999% certain. If you're better informed than Killjoy, why not accept his challenge and give us your considered analysis of important Thai political developments over the last 12 months?
In particular, give us your take on the "other Sondhi" (for the benefit of those who speak Thai, I forget his "nam se khun") and analyze for us his personal rivalry with Thaksin, his continuous appearances on Thai Channel 11 and his mass rallies on the streets of Krung Thep.
Then you might tell us your considered opinion on the support given to this "other Sondhi" by Chamlong Srimuang. (Surely you remember him from the Bangkok floods ca. 15 years ago?) In particular, do you think Chamlong has had the backing of his Santi Asoke Buddhist sect in opposing Thaksin? Or is Santi Asoke now entirely irrelevant?
And what about Chuan Leekpai? Is he really sincere in expressing disapproval of the coup? Or does he see it as an opening for his Democrat Party to regain influence? Maybe for himself even to be appointed P.M.? And while we're on the subject, to what extent does the Democrat Party of Thailand depend upon Muslim voters in Yala Province?
next, could you be so kind as to discuss the potential role of Prem in the coup. Do you think he was wispering words of support for the plotters into the ears of an aging and ailing King? And do you agree with many elderly Thais that Prem was the closest thing the Kingdom has ever had to an honest politician? Or has he been just as corrupt as all of the others?
Finally, do your well-informed sources in Thailand believe the King has supported the coup only under duress? Or has he perhaps been the initiator of the whole thing?
Sorry to go on for so long, but inquiring minds want to know.
> with support from someone who calls himself a King <
Please take my word for it:
Your ignorance of Thailand is not only appalling. It's downright embarassing. I say so most seriously, and certainly not in the spirit of a typical FR "flame."
So I ask that you take the following to heart:
If you should query any Thai on their opinion of the King, whether you're talking to the most devout Christian (my Thai wife being one), to a mountain-tribe animist, to a conventional Buddhist or to the most westernized intellectual, they'll express a universal respect and admiration for their King.
There is absolutely no ruler anywhere in the world who commands such true devotion from his countrymen. "Beloved" is a term that only begins to describe the King's standing among his people. And if you were to repeat your description above to any Thai friend, he or she would immediately become your ex-friend.
Hawthorn,
I think you are extremely confused. I was NOT having a discussion with Killjoy are anyone else in this thread. He never challenged me, I never claimed to be better informed than him on internal Thai politics. So I can only assume that you have me confused with someone else in this thread.
My knowledge and area of expertise is NOT Thai politics, but in overall U.S. foreign policy. My "contacts" are in Washington, not Thailand, hence the views I expressed are those of people in Washington. I used to have a very minor role in Government myself and most of my "contacts" are related not to that role, but to friendships with people I made while studying under Bernard Lewis and others at the Woodrow Wilson School around two decades ago. Many of my fellow students now hold important positions in Government and I am privy to some of their opinions.
So as to any "challenges" from you or Killjoy, I think you are barking at the wrong person. I neither live in Thailand nor would in any way hold myself out to be an EXPERT on its internal politics, but I do know quite a bit about the overall international picture, and you seem to be falling into the international version of Tip O'Neill's ludicrous position that "all politics are local." As I have stated clearly, the vast majority of the people involved with the Coup are Buddhists and this Coup, on its face, has little or nothing to do with the growing Muslim insurgency in the Southern region of the country...however, my point is that to automatically dismiss all potential Global implications is AT BEST naive. What started out as a Coup about unrelated matters COULD have a long term impact on the "Muslim problem" if Sondhi does not in fact surrender power AND he proves to be less "hard line" on the Muslim insurgency than he first claimed to be. At this point, there is NO evidence to suggest this is the case, but the very fact that this man and other around him chose to subvert Democratic rule makes it difficult to predict his future stance on important issues. So my point is that he, and this situation, must be subject to close scrutiny in the months to come.
"The part of the country that I call home is deep with educated foreigners from Asia, India and South America. Whenever we talk about US politics I realize how little they really understand about who we are and how we operate, even if they are now or about to be citizens."
Your comment reminds me of the Asian man I did jury duty with about 10 years ago. We had to keep telling him over and over again about the 5th Amendment. Had no idea what it was and when we educated him, openly disdained it. Depressing experience.
> my point is that to automatically dismiss all potential Global implications is AT BEST naive <
You're obviously a thoughtful and generally well-informed person. And that's not a sarcastic remark on my part.
Let me assure you moreover that I lost my naivité about political realities at least 40 years ago. And I've worked on international matters not only in Thailand and Wash DC but also in a number of other countries is Asia, Africa and Latin America -- starting with Vietnam in 1967.
[You and I may even have crossed paths at one time or another in our government careers. But it's of no consequence.]
So please take some time to consider the solid facts of the matter at hand:
Nobody who's "in-the-know" about Thailand and southeast Asia can tell you with a straight face that this coup has any important implications for US national security or the GWOT. One might (like my lawyer) be able to dream up all sorts of improbable scenarios, any one of which has approximately a .00001 per cent chance of occurring. But even if you think up 100 such contingencies, there's a 99.999% chance that the coup has no implications beyond the borders of Thailand. Period. Full stop. End of story.
Sorry I busted your KING in the chops, but I don't appreciate KINGS!
Anyone who does, is a moron IMO.
This is really somewhat amazing to me that American conservative could possibly hold a KING in such high regard. Not only that, but they defend a coup!
We have sent people to the gallows for less.
Astounding!
Hawthorn,
Yes, if you go back and read my initial comments, my main point was to explain to the people who were worried about this Coup that it was almost surely nothing to worry about, and at this point, no evidence suggested that it had anything to do with a "secret" Muslim takeover of the government. If you read it again, that was my MAIN point, which is why I was stunned by your initially harsh attack on my position where you chose to focus on one or two comments that pointed to what should have been obvious...this is still a "fluid" situation and any long term ramifications are still unknown, and it would be naive to dismiss them offhand.
If you date back 1967, and you worked at State, CIA or Pentagon, then you probably fall into the "realist" category in terms of your view of international relations. This explains our initial inability to "get on the same page" in regards to our thought process, since I am very clearly in the "Neo-Con" camp in regards to foreign policy matters, which is why I was so out of place in D.C. under the first Bush Admininistration. Of course, now that his son is in power, I wished I had stuck it out...LOL.
Now I don't want to be insulting, but while you are criticizing some of the posters here for their lack of knowledge of Thai politics, or their inability to understand Thai culture, perhaps it displays that you yourself have "gone native" at some point based on what appears to be your lack of understanding of AMERICAN culture. You should understand that rank and file Americans will automatically assume the worst and have a negative perception of a COUP or a knee jerk reaction to a "KING" regardless of how respected that man may be in Thai culture. And at this point, you can add the word "Muslim" to the list of words that inspire automatic suspicion on the part of the American public, so you should understand that when people hear that a Muslim General led a COUP to overthrow a Democratically elected, capitalist, Prime Minister, you are going to get people who expect the worst. Now you and I know that this is a very, very different situation than someplace like Indonesia or even the Phillipines for that matter, but to be as dismissive and insulting as you were to these other posters was not only unnecessary, but may betray your own lack of cultural understanding...the very same thing you accuse people of in this thread. And again, I mean no disrespect, just food for thought.
But that said, I do surely concede that your interpretation of the overall situation in Thailand is almost surely 100% correct...but as I've stated, the situation is still fluid and much can change if Sondhi does not relinquish power as he promises, and if he takes a "soft" approach in the South.
Therein lies the problem...I'm tired of wading through all this emotional poppycock!
I don't care about of for Kings, Queens, dictatorships or coups for any reason.
In fact it is reason that I use to form my opinions about this mistake, in a long line of previous mistakes that Thailand has made, and will continue to make until they get it through their heads that Democracy is not a game. It's not a emotional crap shoot where you get to pick and choose based on how loud you complain, regardless of the best interests of the country in question.
This Thai nonsensical experience with democracy is becoming a joke. The country is in a constant churn that promulgates dangerous power grabs and without stability, anything and everything can happen and will.
This American fondness for this country is charming, but it does not and should not be the basis for supporting a coup that suspends the constitution for cryin out loud.
Get your emotions out of the way of your reason before I say something I might regret.
> Sorry I busted your KING in the chops, but I don't appreciate KINGS! <
Sorry "Buster" -- but he's not my King. I'm born in the good ole USA, of 100% southern, redneck, Scots-Irish stock.
On the other hand, I deeply respect how the King of Thailand has been a genuine force for good in his country for the past 60 years. Any knowledgeable observer will tell you that his calming and unifying influence has been the number one reason Thailand hasn't sunk into the chaos and poverty that describe its neighbors -- Laos, Burma and Cambodia.
On top of his sincere and dedicated service to his country, which is universally admired by all Thais (just ask one!), the King is most assuredly pro-USA -- which certainly has helped the Kingdom to remain as our most important ally in southeast Asia.
> Anyone who does, is a moron <
Seems to me as if you're projecting. 'Nuff said.
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