Can a good Muslim be a good American?

A friend who knows | 8/11/2006 | Agent Smith

[zook]

If you knew about Dearborn, you'd know that their local high school is almost entirely Muslem including the football team. Being a Moslem football player at an all Moslem school does not equate to the kind of evidence I offered you earlier about the people I know.

In any event, this means that there were at least--what? 30-40 other members of their team that are not involved in alleged terror activities.

[farmer18th]

What do you propose be done with Americans who are also Muslims, given your premises?

The establishment clause wasn't really meant for Islam. I would ban Muslim immigration to America and adopt an amendment to the Constitution banning Islam.

[sinkspur]

Muslims in America are civilized because our law enforcement agencies don't care what their Mullas preach. They are civilized, here, because of us--not because of them.

No. They are civilized because they live in America. It has nothing to do with "us versus them."

There are no "Mullahs" in America.

[kabar]

Which is STILL malevolent? Which is STILL preaching convert or die? It's not Christianity.

A small fringe group, militant Islamic fundamentalists, is malevolent.

Still preaching convert or die? What Islamic countries today have that as doctrine or government policy? All of this hyperbole is not helpful. It is pure fiction.

[farmer18th]

No. They are civilized because they live in America. It has nothing to do with "us versus them."

It has everything in the world to do with "us" versus "them." Are you really saying that a band of Sunnis at Plymouth would have created the same culture, the same liberty, that a band of Calvinists created? America derives no particular virtue from its spot on the globe; it's virtue--whatever virtue it has left--comes from a correct understanding of God.

I had an argument with an American Indian once who ridiculed me for accusing a particular band of native Americans for committing murder. He said "how ridiculous; they didn't have any concept of murder being wrong."

Failure to understand that some cultures and some religions produce chaos insures that you will be the victim of that chaos. Are you looking forward to Sharia?

[kabar]

If I could, I'd ban your pathetic butt. PS I mean that in the nicest possible way.

Yeah in the name of tolerance and free speech. I sometimes wonder who is worse, the Taliban or fanatics like you.

[sinkspur]

This thread has brought out the absolutle worst in Free Republic. Talking about internment, extermination and exile for *American citizens*... this place has no shame. Especially the "Christians" among us. We've given DU ammunition for months today. Good job, folks.

Yep. And all these "Constimatooshinalists", it seems, would throw it out the door like yesterday's newspaper.

[mc5cents]

But there are a lot of bad Muslims who get along fine with the rest of us, and generally make decent Americans.

Shall we call them MINO's? Muslim In Name Only. Do they bow down, face Mecca and pray to the moongod 5 times a day?

[sinkspur]

The establishment clause wasn't really meant for Islam.

LOL!!

What other groups of American citizens should we exclude from other parts of the Constitution?

[kabar]

Old Churches and Monasteries, Baghdad

[DeweyCA]

Agreed; most Muslims, like most Christians or Hindus, or any other religion, are just nominal in their faith. The ones to worry about are the ones who take the Koran seriously.

[Ace of Spades]

It's truly amazing. Of all the people who rail about the Constitution, 45% have never read it and another 45% would chuck it when it becomes inconvenient for their purposes.

Well, Internet message boards have never attracted the best and brightest. This place is no exception.

[farmer18th]

What other groups of American citizens should we exclude from other parts of the Constitution?

You might not know it, Sinskpur, but in New Hampshire, for example, during the Revolutionary War, it was a crime to speak against the cause. Americans know when it is time to define the enemy, the distinguish between good and evil. If that makes you uncomfortable, perhaps you should ask yourself why. If you want to continue as an apologist for a religion that fuels not just sporadic incidents of terror, but constant, unrelenting jihad rape squads, civilian bombing, and hatred of representive institutions, go ahead, but know that you'll be LOLing all the way back to the 8th century. Have fun.

[sinkspur]

Are you really saying that a band of Sunnis at Plymouth would have created the same culture, the same liberty, that a band of Calvinists created?

Those Calvinists were running away from Christian countries in which they were persecuted. Catholics came here from countries in which they were persecuted...by other Christians.

America derives no particular virtue from its spot on the globe; it's virtue--whatever virtue it has left--comes from a correct understanding of God.

Once again, you're wrong. America's virtue comes from recognizing that there would be no one particular brand of religious expression, sanctioned by the state. All expressions would be allowed, and none would be persecuted by another.

Failure to understand that some cultures and some religions produce chaos insures that you will be the victim of that chaos.

What other religion would you ban? How about Catholicism? Haven't you heard that we actually eat Flesh and drink Blood on Sundays?

[highball]

"What about the millions of Muslims who are natural-born American citizens?"

They can either disavow Islam or deport them anywhere that will take them but they can't stay here. Would you allow someone to stay in your house who wants you DEAD?

It's their house as much as it is mine or yours.

Unless and until they commit a crime, natural-born Muslim citizens have as much right to be here as anyone else.

We keep talking about Muslims as though they none of them are US citizens. Millions of them are, so if you're talking about deportation or internment or some other nonsense you're talking about giving the government the power to round up millions of law-abiding citizens.

Citizenship is a privilege not a right.

You are so wrong. Citizenship is a birthright for anyone born in this country. The rights of citizenship are not for the government to withdraw on a whim - one must commit a criminal act to lose those rights.

Unless you're going to start outlawing certain religions, in which case the Constitution would already be moot and you can pass all sorts of crazy laws.

[farmer18th]

It's truly amazing. Of all the people who rail about the Constitution, 45% have never read it and another 45% would chuck it when it becomes inconvenient for their purposes.

Suppose there were a modern style Molech religion that believed in infanticide. Would the establishment clause protect that practice?

For 1400 years, Islam has proven itself an enemy of liberty, tolerance and representative institutions. It shouldn't be allowed to hide under the first amendment.

[sinkspur]

You might not know it, Sinskpur, but in New Hampshire, for example, during the Revolutionary War, it was a crime to speak against the cause.

So? It was also just dandy to physically own another human being.

You are not, in your bigotry, going to drive American citizens out of this country who have committed no crimes.

[highball]

yea, well ask your muslim friends when we'll be able to build a Christian church and/or a Jewish synagogue in Baghdad!

I won't be holding my breath.

I'll never understand why so many people here, on a site devoted to freedom, think that the proper response to tyranny abroad is to encourage tyranny in our country.

I don't care what they do in Baghdad. We're the greatest country in the world because we don't let other people tell us how much freedom we can have.

[Ace of Spades]

"Suppose there were a modern style Molech religion that believed in infanticide. Would the establishment clause protect that practice?"

No, everyone who had participated in it would be arrested and thrown in jail.

What crime have the vast majority of Muslim citizens committed? Give me something that can be proven in court. The act of being a Muslim is not a crime in this country.

[farmer18th]

Those Calvinists were running away from Christian countries in which they were persecuted. Catholics came here from countries in which they were persecuted...by other Christians.

And they re-established Christianity in its essence; I agree. All expressions would be allowed, and none would be persecuted by another.

I note that you ignored the Wahabbi spray painting incident. Is that an "expression" you would allow under the banner of the establishment clause?