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Can a good Muslim be a good American?
A friend who knows | 8/11/2006 | Agent Smith

Posted on 08/11/2006 6:36:37 AM PDT by Agent Smith

I ask my fellow freepers indulgence for this vanity, because I believe it is too important to be buried in the back of the forum.

Can a good Muslim be a good American? I sent that question to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.

The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.

Therefore after much study and deliberation...perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans. Call it what you wish...it's still the truth. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future. The war is bigger than most Americans know or understand.


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: crushislam; embarrassingthread; fakeatheist; islam; islamicfascists; islamicnazis; islamisevil; muslim; muslims; peace; rop; trop; war; wot
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To: highball
President Reagan said it best - it was a "mistake" to accuse Japanese-Americans (including natural-born citizens) of being dangerous to America just because of their race.

Since when is the religion of Islam considered a "race"? Multitudes of Americans of Japanese descent were outraged at the aggression of Japan at Pearl Harbor. Judging from our historical perspective, it was indeed a mistake to consider them the enemy; yet understandable considering the times.

However, the Muslim threat to the entire world is fierce and cuts to the core of what living in a civilized world should be. As long as people refuse to admit the breadth, depth, and height of this threat, Islam will continue on its trajectory of destroying the world as is and ushering in the new age of One World Under Allah.

Hope you're brushing up on your Arabic.

1,001 posted on 08/14/2006 11:49:32 AM PDT by Scothia ( When something important is going on, silence is a lie.)
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To: sinkspur
“all this talk of "Armageddon" out of Iran is baloney”


Again you are under estimating our enemy. If the planes blew up thousands of people would have disappeared it would fit well into Armageddon. From when the planes disappeared to August 22 the terrorist do what they do best terrorize.




"These guys are cowards and they have no more of a desire to be nuked than you or I."


So you think the concept of MAD will work on terrorists? How about if we don’t know who did the bombing? Who do we blow up?

1,002 posted on 08/14/2006 12:03:06 PM PDT by Steve Van Doorn (*in my best Eric cartman voice* “I love you guys”)
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To: Realism
"If the time ever comes I'm sure all of us will consider the options. But as for now it's not for you to decide which Americans will and won't be covered by the Bill of Rights.

Where did I say That American citizens aren't covered by the Bill of Rights? The subject of the thread is "Can a good Muslim be a good American?"

Don't put words in my mouth.

My opinion is backed up by U.S. law, yours are separatist.

Again, where did I even hint at separatism?

Is fabricating others positions your standard response?

1,003 posted on 08/14/2006 12:25:42 PM PDT by Covenantor
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To: Covenantor
Don't put words in my mouth.

Until you and others grasp that this is in fact the universal condition throughout the Islamic world you are an indirect threat to western civilization and to me and my tribe.

Now, I don't particularly care if your ignorance gets you killed but I sure as hell care if it helps fund and establish a Muslim beachhead to threaten me.

I must have misunderstood.

1,004 posted on 08/14/2006 1:10:07 PM PDT by Realism (Some believe that the facts-of-life are open to debate.....)
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To: tacticalogic
Not intended to be personal. I was just wonderin'.

Your latest answer is well received around here, by the way. More responsive than the first, and in accord with my beliefs.

Buds? :)

1,005 posted on 08/14/2006 1:15:24 PM PDT by ExGeeEye (Eighty-eight days (counting up))
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To: Realism
Your arguement is with history, not me. My parents escaped from two totalitarian 'isms', Nazizm and Communism.

My nearest neighbors escaped from the hell hole of Haiti, from El Salvador during their war years, and Nigeria. We see it for what it is.

How odd that throwing that Fascist label around here is the preferred tactic of the Hezbollah supporters in front of the White House.

1,006 posted on 08/14/2006 1:16:38 PM PDT by Covenantor
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To: Scothia

Thank you for your cogent post.
The fact is, Hirihito was a threat to the world, but all Japanese in this country did not have Imperialistic beliefs. To be SAFE, we set up camps. They must have done SOME good, because there were no internal Japanese attacks on this country, were there?
Islam-as a belief system- IS a threat to the world. And everyone who calls themselves Muslim must be considered so-its not about RACE, it's about a belief system, like Nazism. It goes much deeper than race and nationality.
We assumed the Japanese MIGHT be a problem during WW2.
We KNOW Muslims are a problem now. Can we afford to be less vigilant than we were back then?


1,007 posted on 08/14/2006 1:28:51 PM PDT by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: ExGeeEye

Okay by me.


1,008 posted on 08/14/2006 1:32:01 PM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: ClearBlueSky
The fact is, Hirihito was a threat to the world, but all Japanese in this country did not have Imperialistic beliefs. To be SAFE, we set up camps. They must have done SOME good, because there were no internal Japanese attacks on this country, were there?

Wow. That's quite a logical fallacy.

I have this rock here. It prevents tiger attacks - as long as I have owned it, I have never been attacked by a tiger.

Now, would you trade your freedoms for my rock? Prevents tiger attacks, you know.

1,009 posted on 08/14/2006 2:03:54 PM PDT by highball (Proud to announce the birth of little Highball, Junior - Feb. 7, 2006!)
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To: highball

The fact remains that there were no Japanese 'terrorist' attacks in this country- were there? AND- most important- the Constitution SURVIVED the temporary internment of the Japanese. Freedom was not permanently denied- when the threat was gone, so were the camps.
Any damage to the Constitution, and freedom, was temporary.
Islam will destroy us permanently.
The Constitution will NOT survive Islam and Sharia law. It's a matter/anti-matter situation.
The question that is glaringly terrifying to people who care more about Islamic sensiblities than self-defense is- would you sacrifice the Constitution and our way of life to appease millions of Muslims? Would you bend over rather than fight millions of'American' Muslims, if it came to that?
That IS what it comes down to. Islam is using the Constitution to destroy the Constitution.
Now would you rather a permanent Islamic government here, or temporary measures that will protect the Constitution-and our way of life- from an enemy 'religion' that has stated it will dominate over all?


1,010 posted on 08/14/2006 5:50:14 PM PDT by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: ClearBlueSky
Just out of curiosity -- and speaking strictly pragmatically -- what if the internment camps go up and word goes out that all Muslims are to be locked up. The next day Scientology gets a huge influx of previously Muslim converts. Do we turn the camps into Wal-Marts?
1,011 posted on 08/14/2006 5:55:01 PM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: durasell

Yodeling and asses in the air several times a day should give them away, wouldn't you think?
Oh- women draped in rags would be a dead giveaway too. I don't think the Scientologists( serious whack jobs that they are)consider women property to that extent, do they?


1,012 posted on 08/14/2006 6:06:50 PM PDT by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: ClearBlueSky

So, we'll only be locking up Muslims who pray and practice all those old fashioned marriage laws? The secular ones get a free pass?


1,013 posted on 08/14/2006 6:10:47 PM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: durasell

Oh noooo!
There will be a list compiled- the names of ALL the naive, trusting, Kumbaya Americans who just love those little death-cultists to pieces.
Then, the 'secular' Muslims who don't yodel or stick their asses in the air or build bombs or nothin( the ones who just send $$ to the 'terrorists' and await the coming of an Islamic world ) will go home with their compadres! They would be 'protected' in the bosom of a tolerant American family.
Imagine- not just talking about the 'poor, good Muslims', but actually getting to be personally, legally, responsible for what they might do! Then- when the next Mohammed Atta pops out of the 'good, secular Muslim ' population the family can get on the tv news saying what a 'good boy' he was.
How many do you want?


1,014 posted on 08/14/2006 6:29:58 PM PDT by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: Covenantor

1. I'd say a person who wishes to round up innocent Americans into concentration camps is an American fascist.

2. As long as an American, Muslim or otherwise, obeys American law, they needn't prove themselves in any other way by any test you might devise (demonstrations, etc.).

3. Neither support for Israel nor antipathy to Hezbollah are litmus tests of American patriotism.

4. Whether or not there exists a formal "reformed sect" of Islam is irrelevant, given the fact that since Muslims became a part of American citizenship, the majority of them have been manifestly loyal to this country.

5. Don't talk to me about facts and reason. You have consistently shown little or no ability to deal with facts and reason. Your posts have consistently demostrated one logical fallicy after another. You've not yet shown an ability to reason beyond the bounds of hate.


1,015 posted on 08/15/2006 6:52:04 AM PDT by zook ("We all knew someone in primary school who had a really powerful magnet")
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To: SupplySider

The majority of American Muslims do not support the eradication of all other religions. It is up to you to offer evidence that they do. And a quote from the Koran does not suffice.


1,016 posted on 08/15/2006 6:53:27 AM PDT by zook ("We all knew someone in primary school who had a really powerful magnet")
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To: Covenantor; Lazamataz

Covenator, I owe you an apology. I confused your post with Laz's. Please ignore what I said about your ability to deal with facts and reason. I haven't read enough of your posts to judge that yet.


1,017 posted on 08/15/2006 6:55:22 AM PDT by zook ("We all knew someone in primary school who had a really powerful magnet")
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To: Scothia

"Finally I shut him up by saying, 'You know, by the tenets of your own religion and culture, you shouldn't be having this conversation with me, a strange woman, in the absence of my husband.'"

Excellent. Wish I could use that line on Jehovah Witnesses.


1,018 posted on 08/15/2006 6:56:35 AM PDT by zook ("We all knew someone in primary school who had a really powerful magnet")
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To: zook
Subject: Muslims, terrorists and the USA....A different spin on Iraq war. This WAR is for REAL! Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired Tuesday, July 12, 2005 To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII). The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who realize what losing really means. First, let's examine a few basics: 1. When did the threat to us start? Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer as far as the United State is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the following attacks on us: * Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979; * Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983; * Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983; * Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988; * First New York World Trade Center attack 1993; * Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996; * Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998; * Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998; * Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000; * New York World Trade Center 2001; * Pentagon 2001. (Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 terrorist attacks worldwide). 2. Why were we attacked? Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or their immediate predecessors, Presidents Ford or Carter. 3. Who were the attackers? In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims. 4. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%. 5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful? Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian), that made no difference. You either went along with the administration or you were eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for political reasons (including 7,000 Polish priests). (see http://www.nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm ) Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over the world - German, Christian or any others. Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US, but kill all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else. The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- by their own pronouncements -- killing all of us "infidels." I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the choice was shut up or die? 6. So who are we at war with? There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than the Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting. So with that background, now to the two major questions: 1. Can we lose this war? 2. What does losing really mean? If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the answer to the second question - What does losing mean? It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our business, like post Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can get. What losing really means is: We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks will not subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they want us dead, not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they would not have produced an increasing series of attacks against us, over the past 18 years. The plan was clearly, for terrorist to attack us, until we were neutered and submissive to them. We would of course have no future support from other nations, for fear of reprisals and for the reason that they would see, we are impotent and cannot help them. They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It will be increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain hostage. It doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to withdraw its troops from Iraq. Spain did it because the Muslim terrorists bombed their train and told them to withdraw the troops. Anything else they want Spain to do will be done. Spain is finished. The next will probably be France. Our one hope on France is that they might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. However, it may already be too late for France. France is already 20% Muslim and fading fast! If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life will all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal with us, if they were threatened by the Muslims. If we can't stop the Muslims, how could anyone else? The Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and therefore are completely committed to winning, at any cost. We better know it too and be likewise committed to winning at any cost. Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple. Until we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put 100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to take that 100% effort to win. So, how can we lose the war? Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by "imploding." That is, defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their purpose, and really digging in and lending full support to the war effort if we are united, there is no way that we can lose. If we continue to be divided, there is no way that we can win! Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the life and death seriousness of this situation. President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation. Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously? This is war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of the civil rights we have become accustomed to. We had better be prepared to lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly lose all of them permanently. And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of civil rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the victory and in fact added many more since then. Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him? No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our Political Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict and have a clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to war. Get them out of your head. Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us lose. I hasten to add that this isn't because they are disloyal. It is because they just don't recognize what losing means. Nevertheless, that conduct gives the impression to the enemy that we are divided and weakening. It concerns our friends, and it does great damage to our cause. Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifies best what I am saying. We have recently had an issue, involving the treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our military police. These are the type prisoners who just a few months ago were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their hands, cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own people just for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein. And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed 400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the same type of enemy fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and dragging their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq. And still more recently, the same type of enemy that was and is providing videos to all news sources internationally, of the beheading of American prisoners they held. Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several days have thought and talked about nothing else but the "humiliating" of some Muslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their charred corpses through the streets, not beheading them, but "humiliating" them. Can this be for real? The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the Secretary of Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous results of losing this war, nothing can. To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this prisoner issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burned -- totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. Neither we, nor any other country, can survive this internal strife. Again I say, this does not mean that some of our politicians or media people are disloyal. It simply means that they are absolutely oblivious to the magnitude, of the situation we are in and into which the Muslim terrorists have been pushing us, for many years. Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! That translates into ALL non-Muslims -- not just in the United States, but throughout the world. We are the last bastion of defense. We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That charge is valid in at least one respect. We are arrogant in that we believe that we are so good, powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds of all those who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our back, we can defeat anything bad in the world! We can't! If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive, and no other free country in the world will survive if we are defeated. And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status or any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way that contributes to the good of the world. This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war or we will be equated in the history books to the self-inflicted fall of the Roman Empire . If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow history books to be written or read. If we don't win this war right now, keep a closeeye on how the Muslims take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to increase the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach little by little, on the established French traditions. The French will be fighting among themselves, over what should or should not be done, which will continue to weaken them and keep them from any united resolve. Doesn't that sound eerily familiar? Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away, politically correct piece by politically correct piece. And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown, worldwide that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even to themselves, once they are in power. They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then start brutally killing each other over who will be the few who control the masses. Will we ever stop hearing from the politically correct, about the "peaceful Muslims"? I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. I hope now after the election, the factions in our country will begin to focus on the critical situation we are in, and will unite to save our country. It is your future we are talking about! Do whatever you can to preserve it. After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves, but our children, our grandchildren, our country and the world Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal and that include the Politicians and media of our country and the free world! Please forward this to any you feel may want, or NEED to read it. Our "leaders" in Congress ought to read it, too. There are those that find fault with our country, but it is obvious to anyone who truly thinks through this, that we must UNITE! If you would like to see who this fellow is go to this Air Force web sight and look him up. http://www.af.mil/bios/alpha.asp?alpha=C
1,019 posted on 08/15/2006 7:38:09 AM PDT by ladyL
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To: ladyL
Yikes! Paragraph breaks, please!

The article lost me when it referred to Hitler as a "Christian".

1,020 posted on 08/15/2006 7:55:44 AM PDT by Scothia ( When something important is going on, silence is a lie.)
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