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Help me with an Israel question
Steve

Posted on 07/26/2006 12:39:16 PM PDT by When do we get liberated?

I am having an argument with a Palestinian friend of mine on the Israel/Hizzbullah situation and I am stuck and unable to prove that Hizzbullah fired rockets into Israel prior to Israel's incursion of Southern Lebanon. Can someone point me in the right direction on this one?


TOPICS: Israel; News/Current Events; War on Terror; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: hizzbullah; israel; katyushas
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To: silverleaf
Just ask your fiend why Israeli civilian casualties are relatively light compared to Lebanese.

And because Lebanese civilian casualties are largely made up.

21 posted on 07/26/2006 12:59:34 PM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: When do we get liberated?
It wasn't a missile attack, it was a "kidnapping" of soldiers. Some sources claim that the Israeli soldiers were captured inside Lebanon.

I have Egyptian and Lebanese friends who are always filling me in on events in the M.E. It appears that any given event that the Israelis use as reason to retaliate, is in fact a retaliation for an earlier Israeli "atrocity" etc. etc. Not surprising since these battles have been going on for decades, there is always an earlier event that one side or the other can point to as "justification" for the latest round of violence.

Solomon himself could not deal with this problem. I can only say that Israel is not doing itself any favors by bombing major Lebanese roads, airports and other facilities. Lebanon is one of the more moderate ME countries, and now almost a fifth of its people are war refugees. The elusive terrorist groups are impossible to completely eradicate, but a country can be destroyed, and Lebanon cannot survive much more of Israel's war on Hezbollah.

22 posted on 07/26/2006 1:03:10 PM PDT by detroitdarien
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To: ichabod1

Yep, that was my understanding too. Hezbullies have never stopped lobbing missiles into Israel.


23 posted on 07/26/2006 1:04:52 PM PDT by lilylangtree
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To: When do we get liberated?
The very first thing you need to make him understand is that Issac was the chosen son of Abraham and Ishmael was driven off with his mother. When he brings up the the Koran say just the opposite, tell him that the Bible and Torah are the correct and older versions of what happened and the Koran is a book that Mohammad wrote to make Arabs feel better about themselves.
After you explain that to him, the two of you will get along just fine.
24 posted on 07/26/2006 1:06:45 PM PDT by Dixie Yooper (Ephesians 6:11)
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To: When do we get liberated?
Hezbollah invaded Israel and attacked a IDF patrol, killing three IDF soldiers and capturing two.

Hezbollah then withdrew into Lebanon with their two hostages. They were pursued by IDF forces and 5 more IDF members died in the battle.

So if you limit the scope of this particular conflict, IDF forces entered Lebanon before Hezbollah started firing rocket on this particular occasion. However they did so in pursuit of a group that had entered Israel, killed IDF members and was fleeing into Lebanon with hostages.

This however is not the first conflict between Hezbollah and Israel, and Hezbollah has a long history of firing missiles into Israel at civilian targets as well as performing suicide bombings in Israel.

Israel has over the years captured terrorists involved in those attacks, and it is those terrorists which Hezbollah is demanding Israel trade in order to have their soldiers that they kidnapped freed in return.

If you Palestinian friend cannot understand the difference between the IDF following terrorists back into Lebanon after they killed and kidnapped Israeli troops, and shooting inaccurate antipersonnel rockets into cities, then you need to make different friends. Friends don't let friends advocate the murder of innocents.

25 posted on 07/26/2006 1:06:59 PM PDT by untrained skeptic
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To: When do we get liberated?

Why do you bother?
Ever tried arguing with a rock?


26 posted on 07/26/2006 1:08:03 PM PDT by Publius6961 (Multiculturalism is the white flag of a dying country)
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To: When do we get liberated?

"I am having an argument with a Palestinian friend of mine on the Israel/Hizzbullah situation and I am stuck and unable to prove that Hizzbullah fired rockets into Israel prior to Israel's incursion of Southern Lebanon. Can someone point me in the right direction on this one?"

You have fallen into their trap.

Your first mistake is to consider him a friend. He is pretending to be your friend, so long as it benefits him.

The facts don't matter to them. They will argue without end, as they have since 1948.

That is my version. Others may disagree.


27 posted on 07/26/2006 1:11:11 PM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: detroitdarien
Lebanon is one of the more moderate ME countries

Why did one of the most moderate ME countires obtain 13,000 rockets and Chinese SILKWORM missiles to fire at Israel? O wait, Lebanon didn't obtain those arms nor did Lebanon order them to be fired nor did Lebanese troops fire them. HIZBOLLAH did. Seems like Hizbollah has hijacked the "formerly moderate" Lebanon, doesn't it? Unfortunately it seems Stockholm syndrome has set in and the Lebanese govt is now defending its hijackers. Live by the sword...die by the same.
28 posted on 07/26/2006 1:12:52 PM PDT by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: When do we get liberated?

Hezbollah kills 8 soldiers, kidnaps two in offensive on northern border

By Amos Harel



Eight Israel Defense Forces soldiers were killed and two others were kidnapped in a series of Hezbollah assaults on the northern border yesterday. Another five soldiers and five civilians were wounded in the attacks.

Israel responded with massive aerial attacks on targets throughout Lebanon.





The fighting began at about 9:00 A.M., when a group of reserve soldiers in two armored jeeps was conducting a routine patrol of the border. As the jeeps passed between Moshav Zarit and Moshav Shtula, Hezbollah attacked.

An initial inquiry revealed that the Hezbollah operatives had crossed the border earlier via a "dead zone" in the border fence not visible from any of the IDF lookout posts. There are dozens of similar "dead zones" along the northern border, though the IDF said that lookout cameras to cover this particular spot were due to be installed next week. The assailants may have used a wheeled ladder to climb over the fence.

The operatives hid themselves in an overgrown wadi about 200 meters on the Israeli side of the fence and waited until the IDF troops arrived, whereupon they attacked, apparently with a combination of explosives and antitank missiles.

Three soldiers were killed during the initial assault, while one soldier was seriously wounded, another lightly wounded and a third suffered a shrapnel scratch. In addition, the assailants kidnapped two soldiers, whose medical condition is unknown. According to the IDF, Hezbollah probably had an escape vehicle waiting on the other side of the fence. The entire incident took no more than 10 minutes, and the Israeli soldiers apparently never fired a shot.

Ambush and diversionary attack

Simultaneously with this ambush, Hezbollah also launched a diversionary attack: a barrage of mortar shells and Katyusha rockets on communities and IDF outposts in the western part of the border area. That assault wounded five civilians, though none seriously: Some were lightly wounded, and the others suffered from shock.

As soon as this barrage began, the Galilee Division conducted a routine check to ensure that all army outposts and vehicles were still in contact with headquarters, and quickly discovered that contact had been lost with the two jeeps patrolling near Zarit. Both jeeps had been damaged in the Hezbollah assault. A rescue force was summoned to the scene, and when it arrived, about half an hour after the attack, it found the two damaged jeeps and the dead and wounded soldiers. The rescue force soon realized that two of the soldiers had been kidnapped and sent out an alert.

Due in part to the lessons learned from the abduction of Corporal Gilad Shalit less than three weeks earlier, a force of tanks and armored personnel carriers was immediately sent into Lebanon in hot pursuit. It was during this pursuit, at about 11:00 A.M., that the second deadly incident occurred: A Merkava tank drove over a powerful bomb, containing an estimated 200 to 300 kilograms of explosives, about 70 meters north of the border fence. The tank was almost completely destroyed, and all four crew members were killed instantly.

Over the next several hours, IDF soldiers waged a fierce fight against Hezbollah gunmen as the soldiers tried to extricate the damaged tank, in order to recover the bodies and to keep Hezbollah from stealing it. During the course of this battle, at about 3:00 P.M., another soldier was killed and two were lightly wounded. As of press time last night, however, the tank had still not been extracted.

Due to the force of the bomb, only bits and pieces of the soldiers' bodies are likely to be found inside.

The damaged tank did not have armored plating on its belly; most tanks with such protection are stationed on the Gaza border. However, tank officers said that due to the size of the bomb, such plating would still not have saved the soldiers' lives.

The fighting continued throughout the day, with Hezbollah gunmen repeatedly trying to attack army outposts along the border. At the Oranit outpost near Rosh Hanikra, soldiers killed one Hezbollah operative; other Hezbollah gunmen were apparently killed during an assault on the Dvoranit outpost. The IDF suffered no casualties during these battles.

In response to the Hezbollah onslaught, the IDF attacked dozens of targets throughout Lebanon, including Hezbollah outposts and several bridges over the Awali River. According to the IDF, all Hezbollah outposts along the border were destroyed. The bombing, which included targets in central and northern Lebanon, apparently caused multiple Lebanese casualties.

According to GOC Northern Command Udi Adam, the IDF had no intelligence warnings of the Hezbollah attack. After Shalit was kidnapped, he said, the army decided to up the alert level in the north for fear of a similar attack, but a few days ago, the alert was lowered again.


29 posted on 07/26/2006 1:14:22 PM PDT by oldleft
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To: detroitdarien
Solomon himself could not deal with this problem.

Well we can tell where your sympathies lie although you try to cover them up. Tell me would Solomon have a problem with figuring out who attacked Israel in 1948? How about 1967? or 1973? I can give him a clue, it was the muslims trying to kill Israelis and drive them out of Israel. They also attacked jews back in the 1920s, without provacation I might add.

The muslims are the ones who started this whole mess and who keep it going. Israel pulled out of Lebanon, pulled out of Gaza and were getting ready to give up the west bank.

It didn't matter to the muslims who kept on sending rockets and suicide bombers into Israel. They were pissed when the security wall went up because this hampered their killing off of the Israelis.

You can think what you want, but the truth is Solomon would put the blame squarely where it lies: With the muslim terrorists, in this particular case hamas and hezbollah.

30 posted on 07/26/2006 1:19:25 PM PDT by calex59 (The '86 amnesty put us in the toilet, now the senate wants to flush it!)
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To: detroitdarien
It's that knee jerk muslim thing.

You need to get two new "friends". If you are an infidel they would cut your throat if the imam said to.

If they say they would never do that just remember you are an infidel. The Qu'ran says it's OK to lie to an infidel.
31 posted on 07/26/2006 1:21:15 PM PDT by PeteB570 (Sharia. Coming to a town near you.)
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To: calex59
but the truth is Solomon would put the blame squarely where it lies: With the muslim terrorists, in this particular case hamas and hezbollah.

Would he also be for killing Christians? I wasn't aware that they were in league with Muslim terrorists..

32 posted on 07/26/2006 1:24:12 PM PDT by detroitdarien
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To: PeteB570
It's that knee jerk muslim thing.

they're Christians..

33 posted on 07/26/2006 1:25:28 PM PDT by detroitdarien
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To: detroitdarien
Some sources claim that the Israeli soldiers were captured inside Lebanon.

That's not what Hezbollah said:

"Fulfilling its pledge to liberate the prisoners and detainees, the Islamic Resistance... captured two Israeli soldiers at the border with occupied Palestine," the Hezbollah statement said." (from BBC News, July 12, 2006 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5171616.stm)
34 posted on 07/26/2006 1:29:33 PM PDT by kenavi (Save romance. Stop teen sex.)
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To: detroitdarien
Solomon himself could not deal with this problem.

He probably could once he got over his confusion about these Arab/Islamics claim to the Land of Israel and his shock at that thing standing where his Temple stood.

As soon as he got over that shock he would know that, yes, there was, rocket fire, during the initial incident.

And then in his quickly gained wisdom of the situation, he would advise you never to believe anything your Egyptian and Lebanese friends tell you.

After some more thought he would conclude that you yourself are not completely honest in your innocent rendition of some of your "facts"

Come to think of it, astute Freepers without the wisdom of Solomon have also concluded that you are full of s**t.

35 posted on 07/26/2006 1:31:44 PM PDT by Sabramerican (Hold the Rice, Serve Bolton.)
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To: kenavi
That's not what Hezbollah said:

No. But it's what you now find at the anti Israel loon sites.

36 posted on 07/26/2006 1:33:02 PM PDT by Sabramerican (Hold the Rice, Serve Bolton.)
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To: detroitdarien
See my lower post. It was a missile attack.

Any attempt to equivocate Israel's actions with Hezbollah's is on it's face futile. I don't think that the people in Northern Israel would agree that Lebanon is moderate when they've been getting hit with rockets ever since Israel left the buffer zone.

As far as tit-fot-tat, that's also untrue. Israel has been making attempts to create peace whether through treaties or unilateral disengagement, and have always been good partners to those who have accepted the Jewish state.

But, as they say, it takes two to tango.
37 posted on 07/26/2006 1:34:26 PM PDT by oldleft
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To: Sabramerican

"No. But it's what you now find at the anti Israel loon sites."

Methinks our friend feels quite at home on those sites.


38 posted on 07/26/2006 1:47:50 PM PDT by L98Fiero (I'm worth a million in prizes.)
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To: oldleft
I don't think that the people in Northern Israel would agree that Lebanon is moderate when they've been getting hit with rockets ever since Israel left the buffer zone.

The Lebanese government is less than a year old, and emerging and fragile democracy in the wake of the departure of the Syrians. Hezbollah has been around for over 20 years, with well established ties with Iran and others in the M.E. A joint military operation with the Lebanese army would have made far more sense... strengthening a moderate mixed-religion ME country and a natural ally in the WOT.

What is to be gained by weakening the Lebanese government? Do you really think that Hezbollah will be eradicated by bombing the Beirut airport? Do you really think that bombing a Christian television station in NORTHERN Lebanon, and taking out Radio Free Lebanon helps the WOT??

39 posted on 07/26/2006 1:51:51 PM PDT by detroitdarien
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To: When do we get liberated?
Could you (or Steve?) ask the friend this:

1. Does he believe the Holocaust occurred?

2. Who does he believe attacked us on 9/11?

3. Does he believe that there was a Jewish Holy Temple in Jerusalem?
40 posted on 07/26/2006 1:54:15 PM PDT by kenavi (Save romance. Stop teen sex.)
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