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More scientists express doubts on Darwin
WorldNetDaily.com ^ | June 22, 2006 1:00 a.m. Eastern

Posted on 06/22/2006 1:28:41 PM PDT by Tim Long

600 dissenters sign on challenging claims about support for theory

More than 600 scientists holding doctoral degrees have gone on the record expressing skepticism about Darwin's theory of evolution and calling for critical examination of the evidence cited in its support.

All are signatories to the Scientific Dissent From Darwinism statement, which reads: "We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged."

The statement, which includes endorsement by members of the prestigious U.S. National Academy of Sciences and Russian Academy of Sciences, was first published by the Seattle-based Discovery Institute in 2001 to challenge statements about Darwinian evolution made in promoting PBS's "Evolution" series.

The PBS promotion claimed "virtually every scientist in the world believes the theory to be true."

The list of 610 signatories includes scientists from National Academies of Science in Russia, Czech Republic, Hungary, India (Hindustan), Nigeria, Poland, Russia and the United States. Many of the signers are professors or researchers at major universities and international research institutions such as Cambridge University, British Museum of Natural History, Moscow State University, Masaryk University in Czech Republic, Hong Kong University, University of Turku in Finland, Autonomous University of Guadalajara in Mexico, University of Stellenbosch in South Africa, Institut de Paleontologie Humaine in France, Chitose Institute of Science & Technology in Japan, Ben-Gurion University in Israel, MIT, The Smithsonian and Princeton.

"Dissent from Darwinism has gone global," said Discovery Institute President Bruce Chapman. "Darwinists used to claim that virtually every scientist in the world held that Darwinian evolution was true, but we quickly started finding U.S. scientists that disproved that statement. Now we're finding that there are hundreds, and probably thousands, of scientists all over the world that don't subscribe to Darwin's theory."

The Discovery Institute is the leading promoter of the theory of Intelligent Design, which has been at the center of challenges in federal court over the teaching of evolution in public school classes. Advocates say it draws on recent discoveries in physics, biochemistry and related disciplines that indicate some features of the natural world are best explained as the product of an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection.

"I signed the Scientific Dissent From Darwinism statement because I am absolutely convinced of the lack of true scientific evidence in favor of Darwinian dogma," said Raul Leguizamon, M.D., pathologist and professor of medicine at the Autonomous University of Guadalajara, Mexico.

"Nobody in the biological sciences, medicine included, needs Darwinism at all," he added. "Darwinism is certainly needed, however, in order to pose as a philosopher, since it is primarily a worldview. And an awful one, as Bernard Shaw used to say."


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: crevo; crevolist; mdm; pavlovian; wingnutdaily
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To: Seamoth
re: your link

Walter ReMine is a creationist, one of the leading proponents of "Baraminology" (under the term "discontinuity systematics"). Much like creation "science" is now ID.

I don't know why anyone would trust anything he has to say about science? I think your link just reinforces this.

1,041 posted on 07/16/2006 10:06:13 PM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Coyoteman
Heh. Turned up that link on a Google search, wondering if it was nonsense or if it was a known term in YEC circles. Definitely the latter, and I could only make it past two paragraphs.

Baraminology | discontinuity systematics

You piqued my curiosity, so I went & wiki'd baraminology. Reads like it's written in a foreign langauge... at least it's good that there are at least some attempts at defining creation science rather than "disproving" evolution.
1,042 posted on 07/16/2006 10:17:57 PM PDT by Seamoth (Kool-aid is the most addictive and destructive drug of them all.)
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To: Virginia-American

No, in order for a new gene or set of genes to move to fixation, all members of the population that do *not* carry it and their offspring must be lost and replaced by new population members that carry it. No small feat. And the more differences, the higher the cost. Eventually, you just can't get here from there.

The only reason it is 'fascinating' is because you get to use your imagination to 'imagine' what may have happened.

But ultimately that's all it really is, 'imagining' unobserved 'events' that never really happened.


1,043 posted on 07/17/2006 5:55:02 AM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: GourmetDan
The basis for your argument that ToE is based on credulity seems to be that it is supported not by evidence, but by interpretation of evidence. However, ALL of science is like that. Can you give me one example of evidence sans interpretation? Can you give me one example of a science (that you believe in) that is NOT based on the interpretation of evidence? What makes evidence evidence is the interpretation.

If you think you have some contrary evidence, present it and I will demonstrate where the evidence leaves off and the interpretation starts.

Again, I see this as nothing more than a game. It is a simple matter to manufacture ANY alternative interpretation as a "refutation" to the interpretation presented. My offer to demonstrate this stands. I could walk into any science class on any campus and disagree with everything the professor presents, offering up a variety of "alternative explanations". Does that invalidate any of those classes? Of course not. For some strange reason, universities keep churning out scientists who seem to be able to get real results from all those arbitrary interpretations.

1,044 posted on 07/17/2006 7:36:53 AM PDT by LibertarianSchmoe ("...yeah, but, that's different!" - mating call of the North American Ten-Toed Hypocrite)
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To: RunningWolf; Dimensio; CarolinaGuitarman
And that nice drawing is about as strong as it all gets as for evo.

At the risk of igniting your volatile temperament, you asked in your post 853 on this thread, for a link to transitional organisms. The site I linked to contains thousands of transitional species by their scientific names.

If you don't want to know, then don't ask. I realize that many creationists have committed themselves to the anti-science cause, and then call their approach "scientific".

I'll merely paraphrase what Ann Coulter wrote in "Godless", "even if evolution is true, that doesn't mean God doesn't exist".

1,045 posted on 07/17/2006 7:44:37 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: GourmetDan

Actually, all the offspring of any population are eventually lost.

How about the cost of replacing the human race after all but five are lost? Natural isn't he only kind of selection.


1,046 posted on 07/17/2006 7:45:33 AM PDT by js1138 (Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!")
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To: LibertarianSchmoe

Nope. The laws of gravity are evidence. They can be observed over and over and over again. They are totally scientific.

The 'theory of gravity' is not evidence. It is metaphysical because it attempts to explain evidence.

What makes evidence is the *observation*, NOT the 'interpretation'. That's why you guys incorrectly believe evolution is 'evidence-based', you are operating from a false definition of evidence.

It's not a game. It's deadly serious. You just can't see it.


1,047 posted on 07/17/2006 10:52:37 AM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: js1138

Sorry, you misunderstood the concept.


1,048 posted on 07/17/2006 10:56:22 AM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: GourmetDan

If you actually have a concept, explain it.


1,049 posted on 07/17/2006 10:59:36 AM PDT by js1138 (Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!")
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To: GourmetDan
The 'theory of gravity' is not evidence. It is metaphysical because it attempts to explain evidence.

So do you oppose the teaching of the Theory of Gravity, or consider it non-scientific? In fact, are you willing to throw out all science that is not based on direct observation?

you are operating from a false definition of evidence.

Maybe you can clear all this up for us then. What is your deinition of evidence? References, please.

It's not a game. It's deadly serious. You just can't see it.

I'm not sure what the "it" is to which you refer, but the game I mentioned is the one where you make any evidence-based assertion and I refute it with a fantastic baseless equally-valid explanation.

1,050 posted on 07/17/2006 11:49:47 AM PDT by LibertarianSchmoe ("...yeah, but, that's different!" - mating call of the North American Ten-Toed Hypocrite)
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To: <1/1,000,000th%; Dark Knight
No you gave a link to the the Tree of Life web project, and it is full of text such as this

"The rooting of the Tree of Life, and the relationships of the major lineages, are controversial. The monophyly of Archaea is uncertain,"

This is like the talk-orgins links brought here 'as evidence' in that when you read those links there is no substance there either. Usually just refining a few terms, some dancing around and alluding to the uncertainty of the claims & concluding with a few nice drawings or flowcharts before going off into a rant about the creationist.

BTW there is no need for 'a competing theory'. In fact its better to take a hard look at evo without it. As an analogy if I was sailing an ancient ocean and the maps were as as to toe, I would toss the map and understand I was in uncharted waters.

W.
1,051 posted on 07/17/2006 1:18:58 PM PDT by RunningWolf (2-1 Cav 1975)
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To: LibertarianSchmoe
I'm not sure what the "it" is to which you refer, but the game I mentioned is the one where you make any evidence-based assertion and I refute it with a fantastic baseless equally-valid explanation.

Now you've got it! The two theories (evolution/creation) are merely two different metaphysical interpretations of the same evidence.

That's the point. Evolution is just as metaphysical as creation.

Good job Spanky!

1,052 posted on 07/17/2006 6:40:04 PM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: GourmetDan
The two theories (evolution/creation) are merely two different metaphysical interpretations of the same evidence.

From a google search, "Define:Metaphysical":

Looks like your Ark is taking on water...

1,053 posted on 07/17/2006 6:51:34 PM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: LibertarianSchmoe

Your questions are too metaphysical.


1,054 posted on 07/17/2006 7:20:43 PM PDT by js1138 (Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!")
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googlewait.


1,055 posted on 07/17/2006 7:24:22 PM PDT by js1138 (Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!")
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To: Coyoteman

He has his own definition of metaphysical. For example, forensics is metaphysical and criminal trials are metaphysical exercises.


1,056 posted on 07/18/2006 3:00:11 AM PDT by ml1954 (NOT the BANNED disruptive troll who was seen frequently on CREVO threads.)
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To: ml1954
"He has his own definition of metaphysical. For example, forensics is metaphysical and criminal trials are metaphysical exercises."

And whatever you do, do not, I repeat, DO NOT! engage in abstract thought, because that too, alas, is metaphysical. Abstract thought is the enemy. Stick with pure observations, which as every epistemologist knows involves no interpretation or abstractions for the mind to understand.

That is the road to knowledge. Or was that ignorance? Who knows! That's an abstract concern.

:)

1,057 posted on 07/18/2006 5:57:03 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman (Gas up your tanks!!)
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To: Coyoteman

You post a definition that applies directly to the metaphysical nature of evolution and then merely pretend that it doesn't. Course, none of the little evos will 'get it' cause you told them what to think with your glib remark.

So what part of that definition did you not understand?

Do we need to go over the difference between *evidence* and 'interpretations of evidence' again?


1,058 posted on 07/18/2006 5:58:36 AM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: RunningWolf
But there are also lists of extinct lineages and species, like this:

Mammals and extinct relatives

Biarmosuchia

Eotitanosuchia

Dinocephalia

Anomodontia

Theriodontia

Gorgonopsia

Therocephalia

Cynodontia

Diviniidae

Mammalia

Procynosuchidae

Galesauridae

Thrinaxodontidae

Cynognathidae

gomphodonts

Chiniquodontidae

Probainognathidae

Tritheledontidae (Ictidosauria)

Personally, I'd like to see more pictures.

References like this are hard to find.

1,059 posted on 07/18/2006 7:49:54 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: GourmetDan
Okay, Buckwheat...and when I extended this belief of yours, that < liberal flower-child voice>"ALL interpretations are of EQUAL value!!", into satire, you screamed "Ridicule!!". If you believe that ALL interpretations are equally valid, regardless of their source, there's no point in continuing the debate. It would be like trying to argue with someone who believes the world was created 5 minutes ago.
1,060 posted on 07/18/2006 8:50:32 AM PDT by LibertarianSchmoe ("...yeah, but, that's different!" - mating call of the North American Ten-Toed Hypocrite)
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