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To: TChris

Welcome to the ever-changing world of Mormonism....I am so thankful I now worship a God that is unchangeable....

In 1866, Brigham Young forcefully stated, "We are told that if we would give up polygamy--which we know to be a doctrine revealed from heaven and it is God and the world for it--but suppose this Church should give up this holy order of marriage, then would the devil, and all who are in league with him against the cause of God, rejoice that they had prevailed upon the Saints to refuse to obey one of the revelations and commandments of God to them." Later in the sermon President Young asked, "Will the Latter-day Saints do this? No" (JOD 11:239).

That same year, John Taylor, Mormonism's future third president, accused those who opposed polygamy within the LDS Church as "apostates." He said: "Where did this commandment come from in relation to polygamy? It also came from God...When this commandment was given, it was so far religious, and so far binding upon the Elders of this Church that it was told them if they were not prepared to enter into it, and to stem the torrent of opposition that would come in consequence of it, the keys of the kingdom would be taken from them. When I see any of our people, men or women, opposing a principle of this kind, I have years ago set them down as on the high road to apostacy, and I do to-day; I consider them apostates, and not interested in this Church and kingdom" (JOD 11:221).

In 1869 Wilford Woodruff, Mormonism's future fourth president, taught, "If we were to do away with polygamy, it would only be one feather in the bird, one ordinance in the Church and kingdom. Do away with that, then we must do away with prophets and Apostles, with revelation and the gifts and graces of the Gospel, and finally give up our religion altogether and turn sectarians and do as the world does, then all would be right. We just can't do that, for God has commanded us to build up His kingdom and to bear our testimony to the nations of the earth, and we are going to do it, come life or come death. He has told us to do thus, and we shall obey Him in days to come as we have in days past" (JOD 13:165 - p.166).

Even as late as 1879, Joseph F. Smith was insisting that plural marriage was essential for LDS exaltation. Speaking at the funeral of William Clayton, Mormonism's future sixth president, stated, "This doctrine of eternal union of husband and wife, and of plural marriage, is one of the most important doctrines ever revealed to man in any age of the world. Without it man would come to a full stop; without it we never could be exalted to associate with and become god..." (JOD 21:9).

During a message given in 1880, Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt said, "...if plurality of marriage is not true or in other words, if a man has no divine right to marry two wives or more in this world, then marriage for eternity is not true, and your faith is all vain, and all the sealing ordinances, and powers, pertaining to marriages for eternity are vain, worthless, good for nothing; for as sure as one is true the other also must be true." (JOD 21:296).

Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hbr 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For [it is] a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.


159 posted on 06/07/2006 1:23:09 PM PDT by colorcountry (He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep, to gain what he cannot lose.)
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To: colorcountry
All of your quotes don't change a thing. You can wish that they did, but they don't

Every one of them amount to the same basic principle: As long as the command is in effect from God, then it must be obeyed. The prophets must proclaim, defend and teach it. They did so. The decision to cease the practice of plural marriage could only come from God.

Each of these men were quite willing to do whatever it took to be obedient to God, even at the peril of their lives. It was only when the Lord, through revelation, declared that the practice was to be discontinued that they were released from that duty.

They would not quit because it was difficult. They would not cease because it was unpopular. Internal opposition would not make them stop. External pressure did not make them stop. It was only by divine revelation that the command was given to cease. The Lord, and only He, has that right.

163 posted on 06/07/2006 1:36:55 PM PDT by TChris ("Wake up, America. This is serious." - Ben Stein)
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To: colorcountry; All
Colorcountry, Here is a post I wrote in an earlier thread about the Journal of Dsicourses. (I post again in a second about the substance of what you posted)

The Journal of Discourses is not Doctrine or accepted Canon of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. A little history of the JD shows why. (simplified and summarized by me)

A member of the Church attended various meetings and conferences of the Church, in his own version of shorthand he copied down the sermons. Some of the talks he did not write at the time but up to a few weeks later as he best remembered them. He did this over a period of approximately 25 years. He decided that all this material should be published. So he did publish the material privately for which he recieved money (profits). To do so he had to reconstruct what he meant by his shorthand from the past 25 years. This man was not called by the church or held any position as recorder or historian. What he wrote is very valuable material for historians and people interested in the what early apostles and prophest "probably" said. It does provide a great window into some early sermons of early church leaders it is clearly not accepted as Canon of the Church.

I have personally had non Mormons tell me that I believe the "Adam-God Theory" and "Blood Atonement" by using quotes from the Journal of Discourses. They are both false principles. (Though I agree with the idea that a murderer's blood should be spilt. It just doesn't have any effect on his consequence in the afterlife.

229 posted on 06/08/2006 3:39:21 AM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X = they killed 1 in 4 of us)
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To: colorcountry
God is unchangeable. What he commands us changes from time to time though. That in no way affects his Divinity. The Law of Moses is a simple illustration of this. He commanded the Law of Sacrifice of Animals. When Jesus came the Law was fulfilled in Him. he no longer required the Sacrificing of Animals. God didn't change but what he commanded us to do did. He has tuaght us Thou Shalt not kill. But then he commanded the Israelites to kill the Cananites. It doesn;t mean God is contradictory. But that he is Condescending to Man in their situation.

Mormons believe it was the same with polygamy. He normally does not require it. but he specifically required it for a time. Then he discontinued it.

I have heard various reasons why put forward in discussions with other Mormons about why polygamy was practiced and why it was then discontinued. Some of the explanations sounded better than others. But they were all just that, explanations. I don't claim to know why God commanded it. I have some interesting ideas. But for me it is a matter of faith. I have Faith in God that he commanded it at that time. Most Mormons that try to explain exactly why are usually just giving conjecture.

230 posted on 06/08/2006 3:49:52 AM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X = they killed 1 in 4 of us)
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To: colorcountry
Ok, for real this time I will try to get at the substance of the quotes you gave. (Without the more sly the JD are not recognized doctrine argument). But of course as you may have noted something that happens when you debate with Mormons they can't claim to speak for the Church. (Just as the Pope can talk for the whole Catholic church as compared to a lay member). If you really want the true answer you'll have to hear it from the current prophet. But we both know that isn't going to happen at least not on a personal basis.

So anyway, I would guess the quotes are accurate. So how would one explain that he Prophets and Apostles talk with such "finality" on the subject about something which later changes?

(See post #224 How God reveals his will to Moses through Jethro.)

Prophets who are mortals don't understand everything. When God revealed polygamy the prophets understood it as doctrine that would stand forever. They did not forsee every detail that would unfold in the Federal war with the Mormons out west. they tried their best to follow the commandment. When the Govt. siezed all the property of the Church and gave them an ultimatum to give up polygamy in accordance with the newly passed law of the Land the Church had two choices. Follow the law, which was also a commandment, or continue polygamy and cease to exist as a Church for all intents and purposes. (Thanks Feds). The prophet took the dilemma to God. God said that he recognized the sacrifice of the Saints and no longer required polygamy.

God gave Adam and Eve the command in Genesis to not partake of the fruit and also to multiply and replenish the Earth. They couldn't do both at once.

You could say the same thing about the Commandment to not kill unless of course God commands you to do it as he did with the Israelites and Cananites.

Now as for polygamy existing in Heaven. You may find it hard to corner a Mormon about it but yes Mormons believe that Polygamy can exist in Heaven. Some Mormons get worried about the Public Relations factor but both you and I know this is pretty much what is beleived about the matter. My Father is sealed to my mother. They married years ago in the Salt Lake Temple. She passed away. My father has since remarried my step mom and been sealed in the Temple to her. When he dies he will be sealed (married) to both women.

This view that plural marraige can exist in Heaven helps explain some of the quotes you listed.

Now in no way am I advocating Polygamy. If it is practiced today in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints the offender is excommunicated.

It would be like me today trying to kill Cananites. Even though God commanded it at one time would not justify me doing it today. Thou Shalt not kill is still in effect for me unless God specifically commands otherwise.

(Though I am very pleased to hear on another thread about Zarqawi's fate)

231 posted on 06/08/2006 4:14:39 AM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X = they killed 1 in 4 of us)
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