Posted on 06/06/2006 10:11:12 PM PDT by Panerai
Gov. Mitt Romney says he would be willing to talk about his Mormon religion in broad terms should he run for president but would shy away from debating specific beliefs.
"I think initially some people would say, `Gosh, I don't know much about your faith. Tell me about it.' And I'd probably outline the fundamentals: I'm a religious person, I believe that Jesus Christ is my savior," Romney said during an appearance on PBS's "The Charlie Rose Show." "But then as you get into the details of doctrines, I'd probably say, 'Look, time out.'"
Among other things, Mormons believed in polygamy until 1890 and banned blacks from the priesthood until 1978. They also maintain temples open only to members where rites such as vicarious baptisms for the dead are performed.
Romney also reiterated on the show, which aired Monday, that he believes the question of whether to outlaw abortion should be left up to individual states. It was a nuanced view that allows him to maintain his anti-abortion views while leaving intact Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court ruling allowing abortion.
(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...
1 John 41 BELOVED, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
So, did Joseph Smith "confess... that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh"?
I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" - Joseph Smith, Jr....and again
Doctrine and Covenants 1101 THE veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
To quote YOU:
"What some scholars believe is entirely irrelevant."
Every one of them amount to the same basic principle: As long as the command is in effect from God, then it must be obeyed. The prophets must proclaim, defend and teach it. They did so. The decision to cease the practice of plural marriage could only come from God.
Each of these men were quite willing to do whatever it took to be obedient to God, even at the peril of their lives. It was only when the Lord, through revelation, declared that the practice was to be discontinued that they were released from that duty.
They would not quit because it was difficult. They would not cease because it was unpopular. Internal opposition would not make them stop. External pressure did not make them stop. It was only by divine revelation that the command was given to cease. The Lord, and only He, has that right.
You asked me the question, and his answer is the same as mine. He explains it better than I could.
I have been around for a long time, but thanks anyway.. 8-)
You offered: "I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" - Joseph Smith, Jr." Just a word of advice, friend, your posted assertion makes Joe 'bigger and better' than John the Baptists, Moses, or all the Apostles in Jesus's presence ... he wasn't and you ought get that clear before Mitt tries to run for president. Joe started a cult and asserting such imagery as you offered will do more to reveal the apostasy of Joe Smith's proclamations and thus the cultism of Mormonism than all the scholarly digging will provide. Smith cannot be blamed (ignorance is its own hindrance) for not understanding that God the Father Almighty is not to be diminished into the body of a man when He has come to us in the Body Of Jesus Christ (see John chapter 14 for Jesus's teaching to Philip) any more than The Holy Spirit could be bottled up in a flask for a genie.
Yep since April 19, 2006...with eight whole posts before you posted to this thread. You are a seasoned FreeRepublic poster....or are you a retread??
LOL Or vice-versa if need be.
I'm not sure why you feel I should be ashamed. I'm just doing my best to answer questions and explain my beliefs.
If you want a place where everyone holds hands and sings campfire songs, Free Republic is probably not for you. Here, we discuss, struggle and even debate. I don't think it's in an angry or contentious spirit though.
How do you figure? The fact that he saw the Savior in a vision doesn't make him "bigger and better" at all. Where do you come up with that?
The other prophets you mention were also regular, mortal men who were given an extraordinary calling and mission by God. In spite of that high calling, they each had weaknesses and normal mortal problems, like any other man. The scriptures are full of examples of those.
Joseph Smith was a prophet, just as the others you mentioned. He was not perfect. He was a regular, mortal man. He was chosen and called by God to do what he did, just as Moses, John the Baptist and the others. It was the work of the Almighty that made Joseph Smith special, just as He made Moses special. None of the prophets would claim to be fantastic on their own; quite the opposite. Joseph was no different.
Celestial marriage was always defined as polygamous marriage. Look at the following quote by Brigham Young: "You will recollect, brethren and sisters, that it was in July, 1843, that he received this revelation concerning celestial marriage. This doctrine was explained and many received it as far as they could understand it. Some apostatized on account of it; but others did not, and received it in their faith" (Journal of Discourses 16:166).
The obvious question that arises from this statement is: If celestial marriage was always just another term for eternal marriage, why would it cause those who understood it to apostatize on account of it? The answer is simple. Celestial marriage was originally associated with plural marriage, which was a difficult concept for even some Mormons to grasp.
Also The History of the Church, Vol. 5, p.xxxii, records : Hyrum said to Joseph, 'If you will write the revelation on celestial marriage, I will take it and read it to Emma, and I believe I can convince her of its truth, and you will hereafter have peace.' Joseph smiled and remarked, 'You do not know Emma as well as I do.' Hyrum repeated his opinion, and further remarked, 'The doctrine is so plain, I can convince any reasonable man or woman of its truth, purity and heavenly origin,' or words to that effect. Joseph then said, 'Well, I will write the revelation and we will see.' He then requested me to get paper and prepare to write."
If celestial marriage were merely eternal marriage, why would Emma fail to be convinced? Emma never did agree with celestial marriage.
But who is Jesus Christ?
And this is the test:
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Deuteronomy 18
Also
The fulfillment of a prophecy cannot be delayed long. "They ... say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off. Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God: There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord God." Ezek 12:21-28
Hyrum Smith, who was also a "prophet," on Nov 1, 1831, commented about prophecy and said that "if you hit once in 10 times, that is alright." [quoted by Abraham O. Smoot in 1868 at the Provo School of the Prophets] This also is a contradiction of Deut 18:22. Note that the prophecies and promises which are in the D&C "shall all be fulfilled." If even one remains unfulfilled, then this also is a false prophecy. D&C 1:37
A few of Joseph Smith’s unfilfilled prophecies;
Feb 14, 1835. HC 2:182. Joseph Smith preached that the coming of the Lord would be in 56 years (i.e., about 1891). This prophecy also occurs in his diary for April 6, 1843 and HC 5:336. See also D&C 130:14-17. Joseph Smith prophesies that "there of those of the rising generation who shall not taste death till Christ comes." He prophesies "in the name of the Lord God - let it be written: that the Son of Man will not come in the heavens till I am 85 years old, 48 years hence or about 1890." (The official historians have deleted the last phrase, beginning with "48 years" from the church history, but it is contained in the original diary.) The version in D&C 130 is phrased negatively, i.e., Christ will not come before 1890. It is also made conditional on Joseph Smith living to the age of 85. Joseph Smith says (v 16) that it might merely mean that if he lives to 85 he will go where Christ is, and therefore see his face. But that interpretation would not make sense if the revelation is in response to Joseph Smith's inquiry about the time of the second coming (v 14).
FULFILLMENT: The second coming did not occur about 1891, and the Church does not claim that it did. Nor has it occurred since. Joseph Smith did not live to be 85 years old. God must have known that he would not. Why would God make a revelation conditional upon an event which he knew would never happen? NATIONS SHALL TREMBLE: Nov 3, 1831. D&C 133:42 "...all nations shall tremble at thy presence."
FULFILLMENT: No one can claim that all nations tremble at the presence of the Mormons.
NEW YORK WILL BE DESTROYED: Sept 22-23, 1832. D&C 84:114-115. New York, Albany and Boston will be destroyed if they reject the gospel. The "hour of their judgment is nigh..."
FULFILLMENT: Newell K. Whitney and Joseph Smith went to New York, Albany, and Boston and preached there. These cities did not accept the gospel. They have not been destroyed.
THE END OF ALL NATIONS: Dec 25, 1832. D&C 87. Prophecy of the rebellion of South Carolina, war between the states. The South will call on Great Britain for aid, and as a result war will be poured out upon all nations; slaves will revolt; the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; famine, plague, earthquake, thunder, lightning, and a full end of all nations will result.
FULFILLMENT: This prophecy is the one most often cited by Mormons to prove Joseph Smith's prophetic power. However, most Mormons are unaware of the political situation in America at the time it was made. In November 1832 South Carolina had declared its power to "nullify" any federal act, and President Jackson was prepared to go to war to enforce federal authority. Most people expected war. Thus the "prophecy" did no more than reflect commonly held opinion. Even when the South did finally revolt, in 1861, although Great Britain came to its assistance, other elements of the prophecy were not fulfilled: slaves did not rise up, war was not poured out upon all nations, there was no world- wide famine, plague, earthquake, etc., and there was no resulting "end of all nations." Morris, PJS, contends that World War I, the associated famines, the 1918 influenza epidemic, fulfill this prophecy. But these are not as a result of the American Civil War. (see Chron JS, Dec 1832) Not even Morris claims that there were earthquakes because of it.
KIRTLAND'S MORMON BANK WILL PROSPER: Jan 1837. LDS Mess & Adv. 3:443 Joseph Smith says it is "wisdom and according to the mind of the Holy Spirit" that the saints should invest in the Kirtland Safety Society. Wilford Woodruff's journal Jan 6, 1837, records that Joseph Smith declared "that he [Joseph Smith] had received that morning the word of the Lord upon the subject of the Kirtland Safety Society," and that "if we would give heed to the commandments the Lord had given this morning all would be well." [cited in Tanner, MSR 531] John F. Boynton, apostle, said that he understood that the bank was established because it was the will of God (HC 2:509-510) Joseph Smith prophesied that like Aaron's rod the bank would swallow up other banks "and grow and flourish ... and survive when all others should be laid in ruins." Zion's Watchman March 24, 1838 [cited in Brodie p 195]
FULFILLMENT: The Kirtland Safety Society Bank, renamed the Anti- Banking Company, was organized Nov 2, 1836. It failed to receive a charter from the state, and Joseph Smith and S. Rigdon were convicted and fined $1000 for illegal banking. The bank failed miserably. Those who had invested in it lost their investment. (Comp Hist 1:401-402)
May I suggest;
Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church by Simon G. Southerton (DNA scientist, former Mormon bishop), Signature Books, 2004
Mormonism: Shadow or Reality by Gerald and Sandra Tanner, 5th edition, Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1987, Salt Lake City. The Tanners have done extensive research on early Mormon history and made many rare publications available by publishing photocopies of them at a low price. Sandra, is a great-great-granddaughter of Brigham Young. And both her and her husband were born into Mormonism.
No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith by Fawn M. Brodie, 2nd ed., Knopf, New York, 1993. The most authoritative biography of Joseph Smith. Brodie is a well recognized historian.
Farewell to Eden: Coming to Terms With Mormonism and Science by Duwayne R. Anderson, Authorhouse, 2003 - a scientist and former Mormon examines Mormonism's scientific claims
An American Prophet's Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith (2nd ed) (Paperback) on Amazon
Would you say the same if he was a Muslim?
Do yourself and Mitt a favor and read John chapter 14 ... if you don't 'get it' after reading Jesus's teaching to Philip ('All you can see of The Father is what you see in me, for I am in The Father and the Father is in Me'), get back to me and I'll try to help further.
When running for public office than it does become a factor as a voter.
His spiritual views (or lack of) can affect his character and his decisions
I always love the combination of "was" and "always". It's a little like "jumbo shrimp". :-)
It's something like how, in the Old Testament, worship "was always" done with animal sacrifice, but later wasn't. Or how anyone coming to the Savior to be healed early in His ministry "was always" told not to tell anyone, but later wasn't. Or how the apostles "were always" told to only preach to the Israelites, but later that changed.
At one time, celestial marriage was commanded to be plural, for some. Then, by revelation from God, that commandment was changed. He has the right to do that.
Though our God is unchanging, that doesn't mean that specific practices and commands will never change.
In fairness to Romney, his being a practicing Mormon is very different from a Moslem practicing that blood-thirsty religion. Mormons don't advocate killing those of us who don't agree with them and will not convert to their religion, Moslems are instructed to do just that, kill the non-believers. Please, hyperbole in this issue is not helpful. Mitt will likely make a good president; MaMooed Ahmafoolajihad wouldn't if transplanted from Iran to the USA.
You put it very nice and clear. God Bless, KennyBob
"So the mythology that Mormons believe in is less accurate than the mythology that Christians believe in?"
Wait a minute, I thought Mormons were Christian, are you now saying they are not?
" I guess it's a case of "My fiction is more factual than your fiction".
not so sure about yours but mine isn't fiction.
"When you boil them down, all religions are cults, some more dangerous than others, but cults nonetheless."
nonsense, that shows you don't know what you are talking about.
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