Ex-gay movement seeks equal time

Wilmington Star ^

[SmoothTalker]

"Over the past decade, gay-rights activists aggressively have pushed programs to support gay and lesbian students in public schools. Their success is striking:

More than 3,000 Gay-Straight Alliance clubs meet across the country. Nearly half a million students take a vow of silence one day each spring in an annual event to support gay rights. California soon might require textbooks to feature the contributions of gays and lesbians throughout history."

"Conservative Christians and Jews have teamed up with men and women who call themselves "ex-gay" to lobby -- and even sue -- for the right to tell teenagers they can "heal" themselves of unwanted same-sex attractions.

They contend that schools have an obligation to balance gay-pride themes with the message that gay and lesbian students can go straight through so-called "reparative therapy." In this view, homosexuality is not a fixed or inborn trait but a symptom of emotional distress -- a disorder that can be cured."

"Alan Chambers, a leading ex-gay activist, recalls how scared and depressed he felt when a high-school counselor advised him to deal with his attraction to other boys by accepting his homosexuality. He had no choice, she told him: He was gay. "It was very damaging," Chambers said. "I didn't want that. I hadn't chosen it.""

[eddie65]

When are the schools going to stop teaching reading, writing, arithmetic, history, government and science? I hadn't heard anything about that. I also hadn't realized that sex education includes teaching kids that sex outside of marriage or with animals was OK. You obviously didn't go to the school my son goes to, thank goodness.

[DBeers]

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Looks like same article with different headline as this one posted on FR two days ago: 'Ex-Gays' Seek a Say in Schools

[Das Outsider]

This is the same story, D.

[little jeremiah]

Great ad!

[SoulMan]

Good People,

I have posted on this topic before. I hope you will be patient with me if you have read my posts and I seem to be repeating myself. I feel a responsibility to speak my truth when these posts appear for anyone who will listen.

As a man who struggled with homosexual fantasies and attractions for most of his adult life, I cannot emphasize enough how important it is for people to speak out with the message that homosexuality is NOT innate or inborn and that ANYONE can recover from homosexuality.

I do not need any twin studies or any other studies to know that this is an absolute fact. It is the truth ingrained in my own soul. I live it every day. I struggled with homosexual attractions for years but through patience, faith, therapy, abstinence, the love of family and friends, thinking for myself and the help of God I have come out on the other side. I am now developing a physically and emotionally intimate relationship with the most wonderful woman in the world (God has been exceptionally good to me) and we will marry the end of October. Homosexual fantasy is becoming a distant, vague memory.

There is so much to say here. I don't know whether to tell my own personal story or emphasize the political and social history that brought us where we are today.

Consider this, I was born in 1960. In 1973, when I was thirteen the American Psychiatric Association said homosexuality no longer qualified as a mental disorder. By the time I was graduating college, there was a virus going round that no one knew much about, but that would kill off a significant portion of my brothers, the misfit boys of my generation, the boys who weren't picked for the basketball team. Yet no one said the obvious, obvious truth that these boys needed help to get out of the homosexual lifestyle. Instead the graves were dug. What is man that he would rather face death than face the truth?

Today, the mainstream media, the educational establishment, and the therapeutic professions continually broadcast the lie that homosexuality is inborn, genetic, an essential character trait, a characteristic that defines the human being, that nothing can be done to change. After my life experiences this lie is so absurd it's hard to respond to it.

News flash: There ARE homosexual feelings and homosexual attractions. Indeed it is not uncommon for people to experience homosexual feelings, especially given a particular set of circumstances. Indeed, such feelings can become quite fixated. But there is NO SUCH THING AS A "HOMOSEXUAL," a special species of human being, a separate species that is incapable of finding emotional or physical satisfaction with a member of the opposite sex (as God intended all humans to do). The media, the "Gay" rights movement, the educational establishment and the medical/psychological establishment is entrapping people in a horrible and sometimes even fatal lie.

It is up to you good people to speak out about this. There are few causes in our time that require more bravery or are as important.

[stylecouncilor]

men and women who call themselves "ex-gay"
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Darkwolf377]

the lie that homosexuality is inborn, genetic, an essential character trait, a characteristic that defines the human being, that nothing can be done to change

I don't think it's a lie. I've seen too much evidence in my lifetime to agree with your point of view--no offense.

I don't want my tax dollars used to promote all this gay lib crap. Gays seem to want to marginalize themselves instead of keeping their supposed personal lives personal. I don't care what anyone straight or gay does with consenting adults in the privacy of their homes. It's none of my business. I don't think it's government's business, either, to regulate citizens' personal lives.

I am completely against my tax money being used tp push the gay agenda in schools, in public (here in Boston they have banners promoting some gay march--that's the kind of crap that drives me crazy) or in government employees.

But none of that alters the reality of how people are built. You can deal with it as you wish, it's none of my damned business. But I don't think running from something, not wanting it to be true, makes it any less true.

[SoulMan]

But none of that alters the reality of how people are built. You can deal with it as you wish, it's none of my damned business. But I don't think running from something, not wanting it to be true, makes it any less true.

This is how people are built: In the image of God, with Free Will. That is the reality that people today are running away from.

Not only do people have a choice about whether they themselves want to be "Gay" (refuse to outgrow homosexual feelings and attractions), but society as a whole and the individuals within it have a choice about whether or not they want to adopt attitudes that help people grow out of homosexuality or remain stuck in it and whether young people will enter a lifestyle filled with emotional stress and the potential for deadly illness or seek the path of growth and freedom.

You say you have "seen too much evidence" in your lifetime. Well, I have lived my "evidence." It exists in my soul, in the neural circuits of my brain. I have run from nothing. I have looked harder at reality, including my inner reality, than most people I know.

You are the one who is running from the truth,

[RobbyS]

Since 1972 the psychologists have stopped doing meaningful research on the topic of homosexuality, whether--for instance--children suffer from having same-sex parents.

[Darkwolf377]

You are the one who is running from the truth,

Not at all. That you are taking a crusader's position and can't simply accept that someone else has a different opinion than yours doesn't do much for your cause.

What is the recidivism rate of "former gays"?

[SoulMan]

What is the recidivism rate of "former gays"?

Ha! That's exactly my point. There is no such statistic because there is no real definition of a "homosexual."

Does a "former gay" include someone like me who had sexual fantasies with homosexual content but never acted on them?

Does a "former gay" include one of the thousands or possibly millions of people who had one or two homosexual affairs as a teenager or young adult and then left it behind and dated members of the opposite sex and married?

Does a "former gay" include ANYONE who at ANY POINT in their life experienced a homosexual thought or feeling (by that definition, the recidivism rate will be low indeed!)

Even if you only count as "former gays" people who publicly identified with the "Gay" lifestyle (out of the closet) and then later joined groups labeled as "ex-gay," you would never be able to determine the recidivism rate. Most people who leave the homosexual lifestyle behind don't go around broadcasting their past. For one thing, they have their spouse's amd children's feelings to consider.

But if one man has successfully left homosexuality behind, married and found happiness, I believe society should encourage it (or at a minimum not discourage and allow for change). Because of the potential for sparing people needless unhappiness, illness and premature death.

Forgive me for being a crusader, I watched my best friend from college who I loved (not a physical relationship, as a friend and brother) decide he was "Gay" and die from the fatal three letters (HIV) before he was thirty because of what would prove in my life to be a bunch of meaningless lies. I am a crusader on this topic because of him.

[Darkwolf377]

"What is the recidivism rate of "former gays"?"

Ha! That's exactly my point. There is no such statistic because there is no real definition of a "homosexual."

Well, that's a game you're playing--I put quotes around the term just so we wouldn't have to get into a tussle over terminology but we have to call it something.

You know exactly what I mean--people who stop being homosexual, stop practicing homosexuality, or whatever you want to call it. So please, enough with the word games.

Does a "former gay" include

You're not accomplishing anything with these word games. Come up with whatever definition you like and we can talk about it from there, but YOU are the one who brought up the topic--YOU are the one who posted the article titled "EX-GAY MOVEMENT"--not me. So you come up with the terminology you want to talk about instead of this tedious dancing around. If not, you are merely playing a game--you claim all kinds of "cures" are possible, and then say OF COURSE there's no way to track if they actually take or not because no one can define who has the problem. How convenient.

Even if you only count as "former gays" people who publicly identified with the "Gay" lifestyle (out of the closet) and then later joined groups labeled as "ex-gay," you would never be able to determine the recidivism rate. Most people who leave the homosexual lifestyle behind don't go around broadcasting their past. For one thing, they have their spouse's amd children's feelings to consider.

So you're in no position to deny my point because you have nothing to back it up. It works both ways--you can't say this method works, and then deny there's anything to be cured, and say there's no way to track it so there can be no proof of your assertion that it works.

This isn't a matter of faith, like religion, but one of behavior, so indeed it can be tracked. But I'm not surprised by the game you're playing, seeing how the founders of this whole movement subsequently left it and married each other.

But if one man has successfully left homosexuality behind, married and found happiness, I believe society should encourage it (or at a minimum not discourage and allow for change). Because of the potential for sparing people needless unhappiness, illness and premature death.

That's fine for that one man, but what about those others who it doesn't help but merely sidetracks into something that may lead them to start relationships with women who are subsequently heartbroken when this method fails? How about those women--don't they count as much as the (failed) opportunity for a gay man to deny his true nature?

I will tell you this much for free, if my daughter wanted to date one of these ex-gays I'd forbid it.

Forgive me for being a crusader, I watched my best friend from college who I loved (not a physical relationship, as a friend and brother) decide he was "Gay" and die from the fatal three letters (HIV) before he was thirty because of what would prove in my life to be a bunch of meaningless lies. I am a crusader on this topic because of him.

That's fine, but it doesn't address any facts, merely feelings. Feelings that get in the way of thought and facts--as opposed to what we WISH would be true--can have deadly consequences.

[little jeremiah]

Bears repeating:

"But there is NO SUCH THING AS A "HOMOSEXUAL," a special species of human being, a separate species..."

Exactly, SoulMan.

Every human who ever lived has had all manner of illicit, strange, nefarious, perverted, and destructive desires. Humans also have a certain amount of free will, so we can DISCRIMINATE - choose - use our judgement - as to which desires to focus on, try to fulfill, and which desires to boot out the door. And the more we focus on desires, oddly enough - they grow and mutltiply. The more a desire is meditated upon, and especially acted upon, the more it takes up residence in our hearts and minds.

When I think of some of the things I used to crave or indulge in, that now repulse me, I shudder with disgust, then I thank God that I no longer am a slave to such habits or desires. Drugs, alcohol, lying, theft, and promiscuity for a start.

[Old Professer]

One of the greatest turning points in my life took place right after our family moved back to the big city -- a town of 35,000 -- when, at recess time a flashy guy showed up on the playground with an armload of Duncan Yo-Yos and mesmerized us boys and girls alike walking the dog, sleeping and looping the loop.

What was amazing was that the inventor of this ageless toy had discovered that the thing contained a theretofore unknown property once Duncan untied the string about the YoYo's core.

Life hasn't been the same since and can't be tied back tight again.

[Old Professer]

In essence, the cinchless winch became a witching wench.

[SoulMan]

It's getting late and your most recent post is all in italics and hard to read. I can't respond to everything you wrote but I'll try to address a few of your concerns. Please be patient.

YOU are the one who brought up the topic--YOU are the one who posted the article titled "EX-GAY MOVEMENT"--not me.

Uh, actually that isn't true. I didn't bring up the topic, I didn't post the article. I saw the article posted and decided to comment on it, based on my own experience.

You know exactly what I mean--people who stop being homosexual, stop practicing homosexuality, or whatever you want to call it. So please, enough with the word games.

In all honesty and all sincerity, I was not being coy. I was trying to make the point that these issue can be easily manipulated because of the ambivalent meaning of terms like "homosexuality," "homosexuals," and "Gay." The nature of human language is that it can convey ambivalent meanings, and this is especially problematic with homosexuality and the "Gay" rights movement.

Think about this: There is no objective trait (outside of subjective experience) or physical trait that defines a "homosexual", no diagnostic test for homosexuality. One scientist who writes a great deal about this issue is Jeffrey Satinover. He is very logical and brilliant and can express the point much better than me. Look for his articles on the NARTH website, especially one called the Trojan Couch (the question is not academic, it has a lot of legal consequences). NARTH is an organization of psychologists and psychiatrists who help men and women overcome homosexuality. Their website is www.narth.com.

In fact, if you will explore the NARTH site, you sill find articles that address your questions about recidivism for people who struggle with homosexuality as well as discussions about success rates for treatments. These are scientific and sociological studies, If you are really interested, e-mail me privately I will refer you to some interesting articles I have stored on my computer. Also anecdotal stories about people who have left homosexuality behind. Some inspiring stuff (how people overcome barriers). There are other good websites as well. NARTH is a good place to start.

A point needs to be made that since it is no longer politically correct to change, scientists and psychologists are not doing a lot of studies about the change process. A lot of the good studies, therefore, predate the 1973 APA decision. Nevertheless, there are many places where successful change is documented.

But I'm not surprised by the game you're playing, seeing how the founders of this whole movement subsequently left it and married each other.

I am familiar with the story you are talking about. It is been greatly exaggerated by the "Gay" rights folks to attack the ex-gay movement. The man (it was one man) you are referring to was the on the board of a particular "ex-gay" ministry, not a founder of "the movement." All of the other men involved in founding the organization he was part of (a predecessor to exodus, the largest ex-gay ministry) remained married to their wives, supportive of the cause etc. I might be able to find an article that gives the other side of this story, but no time right now. If this is truly important to you, let me know and I'll look it up when I have more time.

I need to make the point here that I am not and was never part of any ex-gay movement or ministry. That is not the path I chose out of homosexuality. These organizations are like all human endeavors, they have their strengths and weaknesses. There are many people who leave homosexuality behind who are not part of the ex-gay movement. There was a website by one such person who called himself the "yestergay." I am not sure if this website still exists or what happened to him. I am not an "ex-gay," I am a man and concerned about my fellow man.

That's fine for that one man, but what about those others who it doesn't help but merely sidetracks into something that may lead them to start relationships with women who are subsequently heartbroken when this method fails? How about those women--don't they count as much as the (failed) opportunity for a gay man to deny his true nature?

You raise some very important points here and there simply isn't time or space to address them. I agree with you that when a man has a homosexual past he has to consider carefully before he proposes marriage to a woman. Where I disagree with you is the standard, politically correct and currently fashionable "gay who denies his true nature" line. His true nature is a man, capable of loving a woman (and being loved by a woman). He may not be able to achieve his true nature at a point in time because of psychological blocks.

Anyone who hasn't been living under a rock knows about the current divorce rate and the problems in relationships between men and women. Homosexuality can be one of them. But it is not necessarily the worst. These are loaded questions and can be loaded however you want to. You load them against "ex-gays." I can load them the other way, Is a girl better off with a "Raging hetero bully who beats her and fornicates with other women" or a "guy with some homosexual fantasies in his past who treats her gently and respects her"?

In my own life, I have seen the other side of the coin. There are a lot of lonely, older single women out there with no families, no man to support them and care for them (Consider that the rates for fixated homosexuality are higher for men than for women. Men also die earlier and are more likely to be imprisoned. The statistics are tough for older single women) My judgment based on my experience is a lot of these women are unhappy. Based on my experience, I can't help but think that the fact that the mental health professions have abandoned efforts to help men leave homosexuality have something to do with this.

More later, if you are interested.

[SoulMan]

When I think of some of the things I used to crave or indulge in, that now repulse me, I shudder with disgust, then I thank God that I no longer am a slave to such habits or desires. Drugs, alcohol, lying, theft, and promiscuity for a start.

It is the depth of your experience that has given you your wonderful understanding of human nature and makes you such a great man to communicate with on this web site. The greater the sin, the more powerful the return to God.

It is a blessing to have you on this website.

[DBeers]

But none of that alters the reality of how people are built.

What is the "reality" of which you espouse regarding how people are built? In other words, assuming you term an innate unchanging "sexual orientation" apart from sexual organs to be a reality THEN what evidence do you rely on to make such a claim OR is it as I assume but a statement of faith?

[little jeremiah]

I am like many others. Although my crimes are indeed great; I didn't mention everything. I do know that spiritual health is our natural condition. The sickness touches all in this world, but there is always a way back home.

[little jeremiah]

BTTT for your excellent comments.

Here is a Stanly Kurtz article about how "gay marriage" undermines society, your comments about lonely single women reminded me of it:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1638477/posts
Zombie Killers: A.K.A., “Queering the Social”
National Review Online ^ | 5/25/2006 | Stanley Kurtz