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"What is the recidivism rate of "former gays"?"
Ha! That's exactly my point. There is no such statistic because there is no real definition of a "homosexual."
Well, that's a game you're playing--I put quotes around the term just so we wouldn't have to get into a tussle over terminology but we have to call it something.
You know exactly what I mean--people who stop being homosexual, stop practicing homosexuality, or whatever you want to call it. So please, enough with the word games.
Does a "former gay" include
You're not accomplishing anything with these word games. Come up with whatever definition you like and we can talk about it from there, but YOU are the one who brought up the topic--YOU are the one who posted the article titled "EX-GAY MOVEMENT"--not me. So you come up with the terminology you want to talk about instead of this tedious dancing around. If not, you are merely playing a game--you claim all kinds of "cures" are possible, and then say OF COURSE there's no way to track if they actually take or not because no one can define who has the problem. How convenient.
Even if you only count as "former gays" people who publicly identified with the "Gay" lifestyle (out of the closet) and then later joined groups labeled as "ex-gay," you would never be able to determine the recidivism rate. Most people who leave the homosexual lifestyle behind don't go around broadcasting their past. For one thing, they have their spouse's amd children's feelings to consider.
So you're in no position to deny my point because you have nothing to back it up. It works both ways--you can't say this method works, and then deny there's anything to be cured, and say there's no way to track it so there can be no proof of your assertion that it works.
This isn't a matter of faith, like religion, but one of behavior, so indeed it can be tracked. But I'm not surprised by the game you're playing, seeing how the founders of this whole movement subsequently left it and married each other.
But if one man has successfully left homosexuality behind, married and found happiness, I believe society should encourage it (or at a minimum not discourage and allow for change). Because of the potential for sparing people needless unhappiness, illness and premature death.
That's fine for that one man, but what about those others who it doesn't help but merely sidetracks into something that may lead them to start relationships with women who are subsequently heartbroken when this method fails? How about those women--don't they count as much as the (failed) opportunity for a gay man to deny his true nature?
I will tell you this much for free, if my daughter wanted to date one of these ex-gays I'd forbid it.
Forgive me for being a crusader, I watched my best friend from college who I loved (not a physical relationship, as a friend and brother) decide he was "Gay" and die from the fatal three letters (HIV) before he was thirty because of what would prove in my life to be a bunch of meaningless lies. I am a crusader on this topic because of him.

That's fine, but it doesn't address any facts, merely feelings. Feelings that get in the way of thought and facts--as opposed to what we WISH would be true--can have deadly consequences.

It's getting late and your most recent post is all in italics and hard to read. I can't respond to everything you wrote but I'll try to address a few of your concerns. Please be patient.

YOU are the one who brought up the topic--YOU are the one who posted the article titled "EX-GAY MOVEMENT"--not me.

Uh, actually that isn't true. I didn't bring up the topic, I didn't post the article. I saw the article posted and decided to comment on it, based on my own experience.

You know exactly what I mean--people who stop being homosexual, stop practicing homosexuality, or whatever you want to call it. So please, enough with the word games.

In all honesty and all sincerity, I was not being coy. I was trying to make the point that these issue can be easily manipulated because of the ambivalent meaning of terms like "homosexuality," "homosexuals," and "Gay." The nature of human language is that it can convey ambivalent meanings, and this is especially problematic with homosexuality and the "Gay" rights movement.

Think about this: There is no objective trait (outside of subjective experience) or physical trait that defines a "homosexual", no diagnostic test for homosexuality. One scientist who writes a great deal about this issue is Jeffrey Satinover. He is very logical and brilliant and can express the point much better than me. Look for his articles on the NARTH website, especially one called the Trojan Couch (the question is not academic, it has a lot of legal consequences). NARTH is an organization of psychologists and psychiatrists who help men and women overcome homosexuality. Their website is www.narth.com.

In fact, if you will explore the NARTH site, you sill find articles that address your questions about recidivism for people who struggle with homosexuality as well as discussions about success rates for treatments. These are scientific and sociological studies, If you are really interested, e-mail me privately I will refer you to some interesting articles I have stored on my computer. Also anecdotal stories about people who have left homosexuality behind. Some inspiring stuff (how people overcome barriers). There are other good websites as well. NARTH is a good place to start.

A point needs to be made that since it is no longer politically correct to change, scientists and psychologists are not doing a lot of studies about the change process. A lot of the good studies, therefore, predate the 1973 APA decision. Nevertheless, there are many places where successful change is documented.

But I'm not surprised by the game you're playing, seeing how the founders of this whole movement subsequently left it and married each other.

I am familiar with the story you are talking about. It is been greatly exaggerated by the "Gay" rights folks to attack the ex-gay movement. The man (it was one man) you are referring to was the on the board of a particular "ex-gay" ministry, not a founder of "the movement." All of the other men involved in founding the organization he was part of (a predecessor to exodus, the largest ex-gay ministry) remained married to their wives, supportive of the cause etc. I might be able to find an article that gives the other side of this story, but no time right now. If this is truly important to you, let me know and I'll look it up when I have more time.

I need to make the point here that I am not and was never part of any ex-gay movement or ministry. That is not the path I chose out of homosexuality. These organizations are like all human endeavors, they have their strengths and weaknesses. There are many people who leave homosexuality behind who are not part of the ex-gay movement. There was a website by one such person who called himself the "yestergay." I am not sure if this website still exists or what happened to him. I am not an "ex-gay," I am a man and concerned about my fellow man.

That's fine for that one man, but what about those others who it doesn't help but merely sidetracks into something that may lead them to start relationships with women who are subsequently heartbroken when this method fails? How about those women--don't they count as much as the (failed) opportunity for a gay man to deny his true nature?

You raise some very important points here and there simply isn't time or space to address them. I agree with you that when a man has a homosexual past he has to consider carefully before he proposes marriage to a woman. Where I disagree with you is the standard, politically correct and currently fashionable "gay who denies his true nature" line. His true nature is a man, capable of loving a woman (and being loved by a woman). He may not be able to achieve his true nature at a point in time because of psychological blocks.

Anyone who hasn't been living under a rock knows about the current divorce rate and the problems in relationships between men and women. Homosexuality can be one of them. But it is not necessarily the worst. These are loaded questions and can be loaded however you want to. You load them against "ex-gays." I can load them the other way, Is a girl better off with a "Raging hetero bully who beats her and fornicates with other women" or a "guy with some homosexual fantasies in his past who treats her gently and respects her"?

In my own life, I have seen the other side of the coin. There are a lot of lonely, older single women out there with no families, no man to support them and care for them (Consider that the rates for fixated homosexuality are higher for men than for women. Men also die earlier and are more likely to be imprisoned. The statistics are tough for older single women) My judgment based on my experience is a lot of these women are unhappy. Based on my experience, I can't help but think that the fact that the mental health professions have abandoned efforts to help men leave homosexuality have something to do with this.

More later, if you are interested.