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It's getting late and your most recent post is all in italics and hard to read. I can't respond to everything you wrote but I'll try to address a few of your concerns. Please be patient.

YOU are the one who brought up the topic--YOU are the one who posted the article titled "EX-GAY MOVEMENT"--not me.

Uh, actually that isn't true. I didn't bring up the topic, I didn't post the article. I saw the article posted and decided to comment on it, based on my own experience.

You know exactly what I mean--people who stop being homosexual, stop practicing homosexuality, or whatever you want to call it. So please, enough with the word games.

In all honesty and all sincerity, I was not being coy. I was trying to make the point that these issue can be easily manipulated because of the ambivalent meaning of terms like "homosexuality," "homosexuals," and "Gay." The nature of human language is that it can convey ambivalent meanings, and this is especially problematic with homosexuality and the "Gay" rights movement.

Think about this: There is no objective trait (outside of subjective experience) or physical trait that defines a "homosexual", no diagnostic test for homosexuality. One scientist who writes a great deal about this issue is Jeffrey Satinover. He is very logical and brilliant and can express the point much better than me. Look for his articles on the NARTH website, especially one called the Trojan Couch (the question is not academic, it has a lot of legal consequences). NARTH is an organization of psychologists and psychiatrists who help men and women overcome homosexuality. Their website is www.narth.com.

In fact, if you will explore the NARTH site, you sill find articles that address your questions about recidivism for people who struggle with homosexuality as well as discussions about success rates for treatments. These are scientific and sociological studies, If you are really interested, e-mail me privately I will refer you to some interesting articles I have stored on my computer. Also anecdotal stories about people who have left homosexuality behind. Some inspiring stuff (how people overcome barriers). There are other good websites as well. NARTH is a good place to start.

A point needs to be made that since it is no longer politically correct to change, scientists and psychologists are not doing a lot of studies about the change process. A lot of the good studies, therefore, predate the 1973 APA decision. Nevertheless, there are many places where successful change is documented.

But I'm not surprised by the game you're playing, seeing how the founders of this whole movement subsequently left it and married each other.

I am familiar with the story you are talking about. It is been greatly exaggerated by the "Gay" rights folks to attack the ex-gay movement. The man (it was one man) you are referring to was the on the board of a particular "ex-gay" ministry, not a founder of "the movement." All of the other men involved in founding the organization he was part of (a predecessor to exodus, the largest ex-gay ministry) remained married to their wives, supportive of the cause etc. I might be able to find an article that gives the other side of this story, but no time right now. If this is truly important to you, let me know and I'll look it up when I have more time.

I need to make the point here that I am not and was never part of any ex-gay movement or ministry. That is not the path I chose out of homosexuality. These organizations are like all human endeavors, they have their strengths and weaknesses. There are many people who leave homosexuality behind who are not part of the ex-gay movement. There was a website by one such person who called himself the "yestergay." I am not sure if this website still exists or what happened to him. I am not an "ex-gay," I am a man and concerned about my fellow man.

That's fine for that one man, but what about those others who it doesn't help but merely sidetracks into something that may lead them to start relationships with women who are subsequently heartbroken when this method fails? How about those women--don't they count as much as the (failed) opportunity for a gay man to deny his true nature?

You raise some very important points here and there simply isn't time or space to address them. I agree with you that when a man has a homosexual past he has to consider carefully before he proposes marriage to a woman. Where I disagree with you is the standard, politically correct and currently fashionable "gay who denies his true nature" line. His true nature is a man, capable of loving a woman (and being loved by a woman). He may not be able to achieve his true nature at a point in time because of psychological blocks.

Anyone who hasn't been living under a rock knows about the current divorce rate and the problems in relationships between men and women. Homosexuality can be one of them. But it is not necessarily the worst. These are loaded questions and can be loaded however you want to. You load them against "ex-gays." I can load them the other way, Is a girl better off with a "Raging hetero bully who beats her and fornicates with other women" or a "guy with some homosexual fantasies in his past who treats her gently and respects her"?

In my own life, I have seen the other side of the coin. There are a lot of lonely, older single women out there with no families, no man to support them and care for them (Consider that the rates for fixated homosexuality are higher for men than for women. Men also die earlier and are more likely to be imprisoned. The statistics are tough for older single women) My judgment based on my experience is a lot of these women are unhappy. Based on my experience, I can't help but think that the fact that the mental health professions have abandoned efforts to help men leave homosexuality have something to do with this.

More later, if you are interested.

BTTT for your excellent comments.

Here is a Stanly Kurtz article about how "gay marriage" undermines society, your comments about lonely single women reminded me of it:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1638477/posts
Zombie Killers: A.K.A., “Queering the Social”
National Review Online ^ | 5/25/2006 | Stanley Kurtz

Homosexuality can be one of them. But it is not necessarily the worst. These are loaded questions and can be loaded however you want to. You load them against "ex-gays." I can load them the other way, Is a girl better off with a "Raging hetero bully who beats her and fornicates with other women" or a "guy with some homosexual fantasies in his past who treats her gently and respects her"?

Well worded. Homosexuality can definitely be a home-wrecker in a marriage, but it may be one of the worse but it is by far not alone in this list of 'worse things that can happen to a marriage'. A raging hetero wife beater would be a lot worse in my opinion, and the world seems to be full of them. Both extremes of male life style need serious help. It is sad that one extreme is being ignored for political correctness alone by the medical community.