Posted on 04/27/2006 6:26:15 PM PDT by spanalot
Was General Patton's death the result of a traffic accident or was he the victim of an assassination plot? (By Stalin)
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
"who oversaw and ran an operation in Lvov that was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews and Poles"
My , we seem to have struck a nerve. Youyr statement simply is not true because the Ukrainian you accuse of being a Nazi spent most of the war in a Nazi concentration camp where his brothers died. And its hard to believe that the Ukrainian underground were Nazis, when they had many Jews who joined to fight the murderous Russians.
BTW, it was a common mistake to refer to the Soviet Union as Russia - much like some people call Great Britain (Scotland, N. Ireland, Wales, England) "England". But why not use that "Russia" qoute by Patton to mean he didn't see Belarus, Ukraine, etc., as part of the Soviet Union. More revisionist history from the communist trained spanalot.
"My , we seem to have struck a nerve. Youyr statement simply is not true because the Ukrainian you accuse of being a Nazi spent most of the war in a Nazi concentration camp where his brothers died. And its hard to believe that the Ukrainian underground were Nazis, when they had many Jews who joined to fight the murderous Russians."
I think we've already refuted this assertion by you - Bandera wound up in the Concentration Camp AFTER he completed his mission for the NAZIS and because he didn't toe the line with them after he gave them access to Western Ukraine. His close allies also continued to destroy Jews whilst in the employ of their Nazi masters.
And once again - the Soviet purges also put the likes of Ezhov, Yagoda, and many murderous NKVD thugs in the GULags.
But, now their supporters are trying to say because the Soviets put Ezhov, Yagoda, in the "camps" that somehow absolves them of their role in the purges. Hmmm. The same argument spanalot uses for the Nazi-ally BAndera.
Why do you continue to deny the holocaust?
PS - is it just a coincidence that one of the "National Stormfront" (a white supremist neo-Nazi group) leaders goes by the nickname "Stepan Bandera"?!?!?!
"And thanks for the laughable letter in defense of the Nazi dupe Bandera. Gee, what an unimpeachable source - his grandson. "
Well this article says that a US staff member of Patton received a warning from Bandera - that Stalin had targeted Patton. Why would Patton execute him?
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:6jef4036KzYJ:www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1996/409612.shtml+patton+bandera&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2&ie=UTF-8
And if you don't believe that Bandera was in a nazi concentration camp, would you believe the Encyclopedia Britannica?
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:E9_B4nN68vUJ:wwwa.britannica.com/eb/article-30082+bandera+concentration+camp&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=33&ie=UTF-8
And we respectfully request that you not trash this post too much - we don't want it winding up in Smokey Back Room.
In case there is any confusion, the following is a direct quote by Patton when asked what he thought of the Russians.
1. I didn't say Bandera wasn't put into a concentration camp - I said he was put there after he gave the Nazis control of Western Ukraine and didn't toe the line.
2. The Ukraine Weekly is hardly an unimpeachable source on what Patton's staff did or did not receive. a.) Skubnik was NOT on Patton's staff, and b.) The US Dept of Justice Nazi hunter (Loftus) provides ample evidence of Bandera's war crimes - and it's all at the Wiesenthal Center, btw.
My father was in Dusseldorf in '45 and remembers unexplained sniper shootings and explosions - insurgency? Who knows?
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/nytimes/93095079.html?did=93095079&FMT=ABS&FMTS=AI&date=May+12,+1946&author=&desc=TWO+GI%27S+MURDERED+IN+GERMAN+AMBUSH
http://pages.prodigy.net/aesir/wer.htm
"Poland is under Russian domination, so is Hungary, so is Czechoslovakia, and so is Yugoslavia; and we sit happily by and think that everybody loves us."
Correct, and you'll note that UKRAINE is not on this list. Which means Gen. Patton had the Soviet Union in mind when he wrote this. OR, perhaps he knew that the Ukrainians were co-partners in the Soviet crimes being foisted upon the free world.
Some of these subversive groups are still active on US soil.
"Though the German Nazis and Italian Fascists were the best-publicized among the various rightist movements, other ethnically-based organizations were available to enemy intelligence services. Between 1940 and 1942, a number of eastern European groups attracted intense concern, American representatives of minority nationalities like the Lithuanians and Croats, who had allied with the Axis powers to secure their national aspirations (127). Pittsburgh had a Croat nationalist community that welcomed the German overthrow of the Yugoslav state in 1941, and a leading activist here was Ante Doshen, publisher of the ultra-Rightist journal journal American Slav (128). White Russian emigrés were mobilized by the pro-Nazi Prince Anastase Vonsiatsky (129).
Much the most important group was the Ukrainians, who were well represented in Pennsylvania (130). In 1930, some six thousand foreign-born Pennsylvanians claimed Ukrainian as their mother tongue, with the largest communities in Philadelphia (two thousand), Pittsburgh (one thousand) and Scranton (seven hundred). There was also a thriving cultural network, with several newspapers and magazines. Philadelphia was the center of the Ukrainian Catholic church in North America, and there were some 24 Ukrainian parishes in and around Pittsburgh, both Catholic and Orthodox (131).
Most Ukrainian expatriates were militantly anti-Communist. During the 1930s, rightist sentiment had been exploited by new groups closely affiliated with German Abwehr intelligence, for whom they undertook terrorist attacks against Polish and Soviet targets. These movements included the OUN, Organizace Ukrajinska Nacionalistov, headquartered in Rome, and the pro-Nazi ODWU, the Organization for the Rebirth of the Ukraine (132). All were active in the United States in the 1930s, where ODWU militants were involved in kidnappings in New York city. Pennsylvania provided a critical power base, and until 1938, the president of ODWU in the United States was Gregory Herman, of Wilkes-Barre, an officer in the US Army Reserve (133). As with the Germans and Italians, fascist groups infiltrated and sought to annex older-established nationalist and cultural groups, especially the Ukrainian Nationalist Association. Another target was the Ukrainian Catholic church, which was influenced by a pro-ODWU priest named Monsignor Ivan Buchko, who declared that the organization represented “the flower of the Ukrainian nation”. By 1940, some publications of the Ukrainian diocese of Philadelphia were expressing support for ODWU positions. After the German attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, the Philadelphia Ukrainian paper America called for the establishment of a pro-Nazi Ukrainian regime headed by one of the exile organizations (134) .
Ukrainians participated in the emerging Brown Front. In Chicago in 1938, “Ukrainians in greenish-brown shirts marched with white- and silver-shirted American Nazis at the Bund’s German Day celebration” (135). A critical go-between was the White Russian leader Vonsiatsky, who was close to native American fascist leaders like Pelley, Edmondson, and Henry Allen, and was also linked to Wilhelm Kunze (136). Vonsiatsky’s contact to the Ukrainian fascists was Alexei Pelypenko, the covert FBI informant (137). Also linking German and Ukrainian interests was Captain Leonid Klimenko, “a fascist Ukrainian emissary from the German war office” with extensive contacts in and around Pittsburgh (138).
At least from 1934, the Ukrainian fascists actively organized for violent confrontation and sabotage in the United States. Initially, this was undertaken under the guise of an “Ukrainian Aviation School” in New York state. Pittsburgh was the movement’s center of weapons training, and also for espionage activity that included photographing industrial facilities throughout Pennsylvania. In early 1941, a US army captain of Pennsylvania Ukrainian origins was court-martialled for betraying information to a foreign agent (139). The Hour warned that Ukrainian fifth columnists were spreading across the country, targeting centers like “virtually the whole of Pittsburgh, with its mills, railroad yards and river barges” (140). In March 1941, Ukrainians were suspected of having sabotaged the Pennsylvania Railroad’s Cleveland to Pittsburgh express train, which crashed near Ambridge in Beaver County, killing five (141). Railroad authorities were certain that tampering had been involved, but the political motive was less apparent. The Hour reported that the real target had been another train which had passed the same spot some minutes earlier, carrying over forty members of a Soviet delegation (142).
The Ukrainian networks offered a potential subversive threat quite comparable that of any of the more conspicuous groups, though here too fascist influence was waning before the outbreak of war. Within the Ukrainian Catholic church, pro-fascist activities were prohibited by Philadelphia’s Bishop Constantine Bohachewsky, who reprimanded the pro-ODWU Buchko (143). Buchko left the US in late 1941 (144). In the Fall of 1940, ODWU was condemned by the mass membership Ukrainian fraternal associations like the Workingman’s Association of Scranton (145), the National Mutual Aid Society of Pittsburgh, and Philadelphia’s Provident Association, as well as the influential Scranton paper Narodna Volya (146). By the end of the year, the Scranton and Philadelphia fraternal groups were demanding the exclusion of fascist sympathizers from future Ukrainian-American gatherings (147). In 1941, the fascist Hetman organization abandoned its US operations, and ODWU dissolved into several factions (148)."
We now (since 1999) know, that we had radar artillery shells, which helped us defeat superior german (or Russian) tanks; and we had proven that airpower was queen of the battle field. Not to mention the atomic weapons that Soviets did not YET possess! Not to mention that Stalin was a bully so just standing up to him could have worked on it's own.
So I think we DID have the power to stop the Russians. And we could have saved Eastern Europe from occupation. What we lacked was political Will, just like today....
ping
Patton appears to be clueless as to the state of Soviet forces not that he should know that much about it in any case after all he was occupied with other issues.
Soviet air forces had driven the Nazis from the skies and had COMPLETE air superiority over Eastern Europe. From 1940 to 1945 the USSR had built almost 160,000 aircraft, it had built equally impressive numbers of tanks which were superior to the US tanks.
Only a fool would believe that the US army could do what the Nazis couldn't even with more troops. There were 3.9 million Nazi troops against against 5.5 million Soviets and that was not enough to hold back the tide. The US had far less troops in Europe than even the Nazis.
The above post addresses that fantasy particularly wrt to air power. Nuclear weapons were not an issue and would not have been used in Europe without costing America ALL of our allies.
There was NO way the US was going to turn on an ally AND ramp up sufficient military forces to defeat Stalin. This is delusional and a PERFECT example of why the military is under civilian control as per our Constitution.
All of those areas you name (and more) were part of "Russia" (or the Russias) under the Czar for hundreds of years. The Soviet interlude was relatively short thus the term "Russia" fits rather well.
I don't take Spanalot seriously enough to lose any sleep over. This is like a discussion of what one should/could have done in a Risk game.
Multiply any American capacity for suffering by 10 or more and get back to me. And for Russians it did not start with the USSR being formed.
All of those areas you name (and more) were part of "Russia" (or the Russias) under the Czar for hundreds of years. The Soviet interlude was relatively short thus the term "Russia" fits rather well.
Thanks for the info!
" Skubnik was NOT on Patton's staff"
If wishing would only make it so. The following is from Skubik's obituary.
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