FairTax good idea

The Joplin Globe ^ | April 25, 2006 | Staff

[Eaglewatcher]

Americans are disenchanted with the federal income tax system. And why not? Only accountants and agents of the Internal Revenue Service understand the 8 million words on the 60,000 pages of the complex Tax Code. Given some of the horror stories over the years about conflicting interpretations from one IRS office to another, even that assumption is suspect.

According to an Ipsos Poll, eight out of 10 people recently surveyed think the system is unfair. Indeed, the only clear common ground for agreement between the various income groups in the poll appears to be their unhappiness. And they are echoing the sort of complaints heard a year ago when Uncle Sam held hearings on simplifying the code.

Any tinkering with the current system by Congress likely will be perceived as political manipulation in response to pressures exerted by special interests. For despite congressionally mandated, administration-recommended reforms, the code remains cumbersome and intimidating, complete with social engineering breaks and loopholes. So why not eliminate the unfair, distrusted and generally despised code and replace it with something far more equitable and efficient and less labyrinthian like the FairTax.

Taxpayers wouldn't have to worry about being audited by the IRS or making mistakes on their income tax forms. Gone would be corporate taxes, self-employment taxes, gift taxes, estate taxes and capital-gains taxes as well as the income tax. Yet, the bottom line for federal revenue would remain the same.

Everyone would contribute to the national sales tax. Collections would be made at the point of purchase. A system of monthly rebates could be set up for the poor making less than a federal income threshold. Much of the paperwork required by the IRS would simply disappear, replaced by sales tax collection forms. Such efficiency and simplicity would be an economic spur.

One would think that politicians whose jobs depend on being popular with voters would leap at the opportunity to get rid of the disliked tax code. Some day, they will.

[pigdog]

How would you know, xc, since you've never read the bill (or the FairTax website for that matter) enough to know about it?

[ops33]

Thank you for the info, the article didn't mention any repeal.

[maine-iac7]

They are hosting an information session and Volunteer workshop in Orlando this Saturday.

that's good news. There has to be a wide dissemination of this bill - we have to get people aware - to read it for themselves and not just go on rhetoric.

You can bet most of the congresscritters and the sKerry/Kennedy/Rockeys wont like it - it mean no loopholes for the millionaires - for the first time, they will paying their FAIR share. Here's another good sight - print it out, read, it, email it everyone, talk about it to everyone. This is our last shot - and if we push this through, we will experience freedom like we have never seen in our lifetime - and the socialist agenda is dead.

No more income tax forms, small business money freed up = more jobs and/or ability to offer health insurance to employees = pay check with NO deductions = make extra money? = NO extra tax...no reporting who you work for, no W-2's - no specter looming over your shoulder.

But it;s up to us. WE have a short window here to get everyone educated, to get DC to realize we demand this...It would go into effect next Jan! Never face income tax returns again/IRS dismantled/records destroyed.

Get on board.

http://www.geocities.com/cmcofer/ftax.html

[FreeKeys]

ag, you might want to alert your ping list just to help in this project: In today's Nuze, Neal Boortz said:

Permit me, if you will, a moment of crass exploitation here. Tony Snow, who is a friend by the way, is the new White House Press Secretary. That means he will no longer be doing his talk show. Tony is one of my competitors. His show is syndicated during the same time period as mine. Now his stations are going to have to find a replacement! Not later, right now!

So ... if your favorite talk station carries (or should we say "carried) Tony Snow, and you would like to see that station now carry Boortz ... well then, SPEAK UP! Now be polite about it, but these station program directors respond to their listeners. So a quick email might help, or a phone call. The decisions will be made so fast that letters might be a bit slow. Is there one station out there I really want? You bet. That would be KLIF in Dallas. I'm a Texan .. I have family in Dallas ... I want to be on the air there. Maybe this is my chance. How about a hand here? We'll make it easy. Find a station that carried Tony's show here.

I've looked up a few of Tony Snow's radio station affiliates you can use:

Cincinnati, oh - WKRC http://www.55krc.com/pages/comments.html
Eau Claire, WI - WMEQ http://www.wmeq.com/pages/Contact.html
Melbourne, FL - WMEL John Harper - President: jharper@920wmel.com
Stuart, FL - WSTU FAX: 772-340-3245
Lakeland - WTWB http://www.floridatalks1570.com/ - click Contacts
Marshalltown, IA KFJB Operations Manager Kyle Martin - kyle@marshalltownbroadcasting.com
Waterloo, IA KXEL General Manager: Tim Mathews - tim@radiogroup.net Operations Manager: Dennis Lowe dennis@kxel.com

Las Vegas KDOX http://www.1280talk.com/contact.html
Albany, NY - WROW-AM Paul Vandenburgh, Program Director phone (518) 786-6600 paul@wrow.com
Portland, OR - KXL-AM Tim McNamara, Gen. Mgr. http://www.kxl.com/feedback.aspx
Fargo, ND - KQWB-AM studio@talkradio1660.com
Des Moines, IA - KWKY-AM Jerry Chiaramonte, Stn. Mgr. jerry.chiaramonte@kwky.com
Monroe, LA - KMLB-AM Cory Crowe, PD mail@kmlb.com
Quincy, IL - WGEM-FM Frank Forgey, Gen.Mgr.
fforgey@wgem.com, Dustin Dorrell, Operations Mgr. ddorell@wgem.com
Elkhart, IN - WTRC-AM WTRC@am1340.com

<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>> Find all 38 ways to LISTEN to|BOORtz over the web  including evenings and weekends -- HERE: http://FreedomKeys.com/boortzcast.htm <<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>

[groanup]

Also, you might want to ping your list. There will be a fair tax rally at the Gwinnett Civic Center in Gwinnett County, GA near Atlanta, with Boortz, Linder and a few surprises sometime in May. Details are on Boortz's website:

http://boortz.com

[FreeKeys]

OK, I've tried to add links to that list:

Cincinnati, OH - WKRC http://www.55krc.com/pages/comments.html
Eau Claire, WI - WMEQ http://www.wmeq.com/pages/Contact.html
Melbourne, FL - WMEL John Harper - President: jharper@920wmel.com
Stuart, FL - WSTU FAX: 772-340-3245 Lakeland - WTWB http://www.floridatalks1570.com/ - click Contacts
Marshalltown, IA KFJB Operations Manager Kyle Martin - kyle@marshalltownbroadcasting.com
Waterloo, IA KXEL General Manager: Tim Mathews - Operations Manager: Dennis Lowe dennis@kxel.com

Las Vegas KDOX http://www.1280talk.com/contact.html
Albany, NY - WROW-AM Paul Vandenburgh, Program Director phone (518) 786-6600 paul@wrow.com
Portland, OR - KXL-AM Tim McNamara, Gen. Mgr. http://www.kxl.com/feedback.aspx
Fargo, ND - KQWB-AM studio@talkradio1660.com Des Moines, IA - KWKY-AM Jerry Chiaramonte, Stn. Mgr. jerry.chiaramonte@kwky.com
Monroe, LA - KMLB-AM Cory Crowe, PD mail@kmlb.com
Quincy, IL - WGEM-FM Frank Forgey, Gen.Mgr. fforgey@wgem.com, Dustin Dorrell, Operations Mgr. ddorell@wgem.com
Elkhart, IN - WTRC-AM WTRC@am1340.com

[ancient_geezer]

Consider them pinged, sorry about being so late, been away for the day on family stuff.

A Taxreform bump for you all.

If anyone would like to be added to this ping list let me know.

John Linder in the House(HR25) & Saxby Chambliss Senate(S25) offer a comprehensive bill to kill all income and SS/Medicare payroll taxes outright and replace them with with a national retail sales tax administered by the states.

H.R.25,S.25
A bill to promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national retail sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.

Refer for additional information:

• search: "national sales tax" OR "national retail sales tax" OR "fairtax"

[FreeKeys]

Thanks to everyone's emails, Neal is now on WKRC's poll question at http://55krc.com/pages/poll.html -- "Who would you like to hear 9AM till noon on 55KRC?" Let's FReep it!

[xcamel]

The Fair Tax con artists!

Listen to the callers on the Neal Boortz talk show in addition to the host raving in support of the so called Fair Tax, [H.R.25] and you get the sad feeling there is little hope in accomplishing real tax reform in America.

It’s amazing how caller after caller make statements in support of H.R. 25 which simply are not true or misrepresent the actual consequences of the proposal. The following are some typical paraphrased examples:

CALLER:

Quote: The FT would repeal income taxes and this is why so many liberals hate the plan.

TRUTH:

The FT does not repeal “income taxes”. Only a constitutional amendment can forbid Congress to calculate a tax from income. H.R. 25 is nothing more than a list of suggestions. Even if it were to pass and be signed into law by the President, it would not be binding legislation upon a future Congress which would be free to change the plan at their pleasure. The only way to achieve real tax reform is through a constitutional amendment, which binds the hands of Congress. Under the FT proposal, a future Congress is free to slowly amend H.R. 25 to its liking and reestablish the very system we now have, with the addition of a tax on all consumer goods and services. If the Fair Tax was now in practice, how many people would object to a small tax upon those evil oil company profits, starting the ball rolling to a return to our existing system?

CALLER:

Quote: I like the idea of the family consumption allowance so poor people wont have to pay a tax on the necessities of life.

TRUTH:

All people when purchasing the necessities of life will still pay the 23 percent tax on such articles. The family consumption allowance is a monthly government check given to each household, and rations the amount of tax free necessities to each household by the size of the check if it is used for those items.

In addition, H.R. 25 is down right socialist friendly in that it would put every American Household on the government dole via its monthly “family consumption allowance”, and would give Senator Ted Socialist Kennedy a very valuable tool which he and his socialist disciples in Congress will promise to increase during election time to buy millions of votes to remain in power, just as these socialists now do with the minimum wage, social security payments, aid to families with dependant children, Pell Grants, and you name it from the shopping list of government give-away- programs created by Congress___ the only difference with H.R. 25 is, its family consumption allowance promises to extend the tentacles of socialism to every American household with a monthly government subsistence check, making the majority of American households dependent upon a monthly government check! Were we not warned by Hamilton in the Federalist Papers that control over a man subsistence is a control over their will?

CALLER:

Quote: Another benefit of the FT is it will end the costly record keeping for most Americans and businesses.

TRUTH:

In addition to making American households dependent upon a monthly government check, the fair tax proposal expands the number of tax gathers to include individual tradesmen and entrepreneurs, and even ordinary working people engaged in self employment, forcing them to all "register" with folks in government in order to pursue a livelihood [ see SEC. 502. REGISTRATION]. In short, the FT proposal would require these poor souls to become a modern-day regiment of enlisted tax gathers for government, increasing the number of tax gathers throughout the United States to an all time high, and compelling each to maintain burdensome and inquisitorial records and reports under a penalty of perjury [just as is now done with the income tax] to satisfy the wants and fancies of tyrants in government___ all the above to be implemented under the pretext of the "Fair Tax Reform“, a reform which promises to abolish the IRS and income taxation, but in substance and truth will only tighten the iron fist of government around the people’s productivity, while demanding the people to shamefully kneel to the iron fist of government, to receive their monthly government subsistence check .

CALLER:

Quote: Another great feature of the FT is that it is revenue neutral which means it raises the same amount of money now raised under income taxation.

TRUTH:

Amazing that the plan is sold on the idea that it will raise existing levels of revenue which is code wording to indicate the FT is designed to intentionally support existing big government, and pay for the salaries of all those involved in big government unconstitutional political plum job offices.

The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay “any” tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money.

Another objection to H.R. 25, the alleged FairTax, is its attempt to resurrect a socialist type of tax allowable under the Articles of Confederation___ a general across the board tax based upon wealth in which each member state agreed to contribute into the common treasury in proportion to its assessed land value, i.e., a wealth based tax.

Article VIII. of the Articles of Confederation states:

All charges of war, and all other expenses that shall be incurred for the common defense or general welfare, and allowed by the united states in congress assembled, shall be defrayed out of a common treasury, which shall be supplied by the several states in proportion to the value of all land within each state, granted to or surveyed for any Person, as such land and the buildings and improvements thereon shall be estimated according to such mode as the united states in congress assembled, shall from time to time direct and appoint.”

But this kind of tax, a general tax based upon wealth by which the various member states agreed to contribute into the common treasury under the Articles of Confederation, was rejected during the Convention of 1787 and protection was afforded against it by a new rule requiring the general tax to be apportioned among the states and basing each state's share, not upon wealth, not upon “income”, but upon each state’s number of representatives in Congress---in other words representation with proportional obligation___ the new rule for a general tax which socialists and the friends a profligate big government hate with a passion because it is an antidote to a spendthrift big government and takes the socialist sting out of a general across the board tax upon wealth in which member states are to contribute into the common treasury.

Although H.R. 25 does not calculate each state’s share of the tax upon its assessed land value as done under the Articles of Confederation, it attempts to accomplish the same socialist objective by calculating the contributions of each member state by the value of property sold and its economic enterprises as reflected in business transactions within each particular state, and is, without question, a general wealth based tax which the wise Framers agreed, and those ratifying our Constitution agreed, may be laid among the states, but requires an apportionment based upon each state’s number of representatives in Congress Assembled, which was an important compromise during the Convention of 1787!

H.R. 25 is another attack upon federalism, attempts to accomplish indirectly what the Constitution was intended to forbid directly, and seeks to establish a socialist friendly type of wealth based tax in which the most productive member states in the Union would be compelled to carry the burden of taxation while the least productive states may feed from the public trough using their vote without contributing in proportion to their voting strength.

In harmony with the new rule of apportionment agreed to by the ratification of our Constitution, and when the various states are required to contribute into the common treasury in a general tax such as H.R. 25 is, Congress is required to determine a total sum needed to be collected under the general tax and then notify each member state of its share of the total amount to being collected, basing each state’s apportioned share on its allotted number of representatives, and, when each state`s share of the total being collected is raised and deposited with the Treasury of the United States, the tax is to be suspended in those states having paid their apportioned share of the general tax being collected.

Now, how does one confirm the historical truth of this matter, and, was this the intention of the framers and ratifiers of our Constitution? Well, we can do this by reading from the state ratification documents as to what the founders intended with regard to the various member states contributing into the common treasury in a general direct tax.

EXAMPLE:

Ratification of the Constitution by the State of New Hampshire

Fourthly That Congress do not lay direct Taxes but when the money arising from Impost, Excise and their other resources are insufficient for the Public Exigencies; nor then, until Congress shall have first made a Requisition upon the States, to Assess, Levy, & pay their respective proportions, of such requisitions agreeably to the Census fixed in the said Constitution in such way & manner as the Legislature of the State shall think best and in such Case if any State shall neglect, then Congress may Assess & Levy such States proportion together with the Interest thereon at the rate of six per Cent per Annum from the Time of payment prescribed in such requisition.

Bottom line: the only stinking tax reform we need is for the people to demand their employees in Washington add the following words to our Constitution, bringing us back to our Nation’s original tax plan:

The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money

IN CONCLUSION, The only stinking tax reform we need is to add the following words to our Constitution, bringing us back to our Founding Father’s original tax plan:

"In matters of Power, let no more be heard of confidence in men, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution" --- Thomas Jefferson

[pigdog]

You are posting nothing but utter TRASH - and huge volumes of lies to boot. Even dragging in the Articles of Confederation which worked very poorly (which is why we no longer have them). But we'll get to that, xc, but let's take each of your four lies you present (while deceitfully calling them "TRUTHS").

"TRUTH #1": First of all a constitutional amendment to prevent Congress from taxing income would have to overturn one of the basic tenets of the Constitution -= Article I, Section 8 which gives Congress the power to lay and collect taxes. In spite of your Articles of Confederation nonsense, that's not going to happen - nor should it. The FairTax bill does eliminate the income tax (plus several others), the corresponding tax laws, the IRS, and requires the destruction of the income tax records. That means it is repealed (which means "... to revoke or abrogate by legislative enactment ...") despite your misuse of the terminology. A Constitutional amendment is not required but there is no objection form any FairTax supporter I know to having a bill to repeal the 16th to shut up all mental midgets that believe it does something it does not. The FairTax bill calls for that very amendment to be repealed in fact and there is already a bill in front of Congress to do that.

Since Congress under the basic portion of the Constitution has the power to lay and collect taxes, the only way to eliminate income taxes is to eliminate income taxes. I realize that's tough for you to grasp, but them's the facts. And the FairTax does that - it repeals the income taxes and in their place puts a very simple, fair, and workable tax system that will help our country greatly.

You obviously haven't the sense to realize that right now Congress could vote a sales tax upon us in addition to an income tax ... and could have done so anytime in almost the last 100 years yet they have not done so (though Rangel has offered up such a notion). The reason that they haven't should be obvious to anyone with half a brain ... they are interested in retaining their exalted positions by not getting voted out on their ear.

THE ACTUAL TRUTH #1: The FairTax does repeal (and eliminate in several ways) the income tax. To bring back an income based tax Congress would have to face a very angry voting public who by the time the political machinery gets that far along will have benefited substantially by the operation of the FairTax. The voters will know a good thing when they've lived under it a short time. Pols trying to bring it back (even if the 16th amendment is also repealed) will do so at the peril of their posts.

"TRUTH #2" Wrong as hell. The effective tax rate will always be less than the specified HR25 rate (which is very likely to be something like 19% rather than 23% in any event). A sixth grader with a pencil and paper could easily determine this ... apparently that's beyond you, however.

Nor is there any way in which he FairTax "... rations the amount of tax free necessities to each household ..." since it is up to the individual family to determine what it might spend that money for. Nor can this prebate amount be freely manipulated for political advantage as you proffer since it is clearly specified in other laws and used in many government programs. You are far too used to the political mischief under the present tax system and project that to continue. It cannot since any increase in the prebale increases the rate for ALL taxpayers (even the Congressmen involved) and the effects of the FairTax are easily visible to all taxpayer in each and every purchase receipt.

THE ACTUAL TRUTH #2: It's not socialism or "subsistence" at all, but FREEDOM that the FairTax offers by the prebate giving each family the ability to decide for themselves what the money should be spent for (or saved). that's the antithesis of socialism but perhaps you don't know that - it's called freedom of having choice and control of your own financial resources unfettered by government ninnies (or stoolpigeons like you). And it is not a "dole" or an entitlement but a refund of taxes paid.

"TRUTH #3": The number of "tax gatherers" under the FairTax will be substantially less than under the present system AND the merchants collecting the tax will be paid to do so unlike the unfunded mandate impressed upon all business today. FAR FEWER tax gatherers - got that??? Your limp-wristed sobbing about the "poor souls" that are "forced" to "register" under the FairTax is the worst sort of demagoguery - and untrue in any event. Figure it out, fool, the number will be FAR LESS. I'll not bother to do the arithmetic for you though someone else might.

ACTUAL TRUTH #3: There will be far fewer people involved in collecting and forwarding the FairTax than there are under the present income tax where every business is forced to not only "register" with the IRS (and actually do so in several different ways), but to retain the sort of burdensome and onerous records this poster is whining about - and they get no recompense from the government but must bear the expense themselves. Under the FairTax only some business will need to collect and forward the tax and the "burdensome and inquisitorial" report required to be sent with the payment is a two line report. This guy is clearly a biased fool.

"TRUTH #4": This is the same old BS that was posted ad nausea by a poster under a different screenname months ago on these threads who abandoned the effort once it was unearthed that the was allied with the Tax Protester movement and certain individuals in that movement. This poster uses some of the exact same catch phrases and quotations as the other idiot and espouses the same tired old Articles of Confederation nonsense (which tax scheme didn't do too well at the time and was eventually replaced by our first income tax in 1863). So now hyping a failed tax plan is the solution to our tax problems ... I think not.

THE ACTUAL TRUTH #4: Nothing about the FairTax is socialistic except the names that misinformed and ignorant opponents try to hang on it hoping that someone not knowledgeable will believe such claptrap. The Articles of Confederation went the way of all things many moons ago - and for good reason (they weren't practical and didn't do the job needed). In addition the FairTax is not a tax on wealth at all but only on consumption. Wealth may be accumulated tax free under the FairTax and everyone with a brain should make every effort to do so to help his family.

I can only believe that this guy, too, is involved in the TP (Tax Protester) movement and like almost all of those in it are actually hoping to destroy our society by such ludicrous claims and statements. To find out more about some of he individuals in the TP movement, here's a good source of information.

[xcamel]

The depth and depravity of your lies and distortions are truly amazing. You cannot contradict facts, you only seem to be able to impugn character. Enjoy your delusions... while they last.

Fair Tax=Flat Earth.

[Bigun]

The FT does not repeal “income taxes”. Only a constitutional amendment can forbid Congress to calculate a tax from income. H.R. 25 is nothing more than a list of suggestions. Even if it were to pass and be signed into law by the President, it would not be binding legislation upon a future Congress which would be free to change the plan at their pleasure. The only way to achieve real tax reform is through a constitutional amendment, which binds the hands of Congress. Under the FT proposal, a future Congress is free to slowly amend H.R. 25 to its liking and reestablish the very system we now have, with the addition of a tax on all consumer goods and services. If the Fair Tax was now in practice, how many people would object to a small tax upon those evil oil company profits, starting the ball rolling to a return to our existing system?

I only had to read this far for it to become abundantly clear to me that, as I had previously expected, you do not have even the most remote idea as to what it is you are talking about here!

The fairtax bill does in fact repeal the income tax and several others as well but there is no use trying to explain something to someone who already knows everything!

BTW: The 16th amendment does NOT do what you apparently think it does!

[xcamel]

You use the exact same logic to convince the average dupe that 30 really equals 23.

You and the "Klu Tax Klan" are snowjobing America with your jealous hatred the IRS "bogeyman". When you are trapped by the truth, you all resort to name calling and abuse. over 3700 posts in the last 2 years dedicated specifically calling other freepers with a different view "stupid", "ignorant", "liar", "IRS employee", "clueless", "uninformed", "witless", "dense", "loser", "ludicrous", "meaningless", "mindless", and on and on.

If you folks are so *&%%$ smart, why aren't you running the country by now?

[Bigun]

When you are trapped by the truth, you all resort to name calling and abuse.

Since no one has yet seen even a modicum of "truth" from you that would remain to be seen now wouldn't it and furthermore it seems to me that YOU might be the one who is getting a little testy about now Mr. IRS!

[pigdog]

... and especially that "on and on" part since the self-descriptions you pulled out don't begin to cover the depth opf your ignorance.

You might try reading HR25 so you as least have a clue ...
as it is you just babble malapropisms and maladroit constructions of things that never were and never will be while with the FairTax there is a thorough and well-studied bill before both houses of Congress.

[pigdog]

Covered in #95.

[pigdog]

Shhhh!!! Don't let it get out ... we ARE!!!

[RobFromGa]

You still haven't got a clue about how economics work, and especially what the cost structure of a business is. If you did, you'd be embarrassed to read your remarkably wrong "facts". You are so far from an understanding that you are actually into a fantasy land where you are about the only person that believes your visualization of the FairTax, you are the single worst enemy the FairTax could have because you are totally unwilling to acknowledge even the obvious.

[pigdog]

'Preciate all your nice compliments, Robbie. That's real warm and fuzzy coming from someone who has openly acknowledged luvving the Status Quo and wanting to stick with what we have for a tax system.

That says about everything about you that readers need to know to evaluate the honesty and truthfulness of your remarks. And it's something you told us all by your little old self!!!

[wgflyer]

"The FairTax is neither double taxation nor fraud any more so than the "double taxation and fraud" that goes on under the income tax when you use that previously taxed money to buy things whose price has been inflated by the cost of income taxes embedded into the price. That's the same sort of double taxation - and it's hidden to boot."

GSlob doesn't understand this, or seem to accept even the concept of an embedded tax. His arguments ignore it. He seems to prefer double taxation of his savings, and the guarantee of double taxation on future savings and future earnings through perpetuation of the IRS, to any change that he doesn't understand. Even though he won't have to fill out another 1040, will have no (federal taxation) money withdrawn from his paycheck and will keep all the interest and capital gains he receives after enactment, he'll be miserable if the FairTax passes because the receipts for everything he buys will blatantly show him the 23 percent tax he is paying. He feels that he is better off now that the embedded tax is not pointed out to him so overtly. I imagine he also feels he has beaten the system every time he gets a refund, like so many do.