Immigration Rally’s Live Thread

Apr. 9th, 2006 | Danae

[Danae]

Ok, here on FoxNews we have, oh abut 1000K people gathering in white t-shirts in Dallas. If you aren’t paying attention to this, you should be.

I am going to propose a heretical idea. We have 11 MILLION or so of these people who are HERE, and they are NOT going to be leaving soon. If even a third of those 11 million get even slightly militant, we have one VERY serious problem. VERY, VERY serious. Here is the idea: Against the strident advise of the all the lawmakers in Washington, we just give them all amnesty. Then the GOP leads the drive to register and assimilate these under grounders, get them English language, insurance, paying taxes, and all the legitimate trappings of being a US citizen. Why? Because then they will be LOYAL to us and the United States. Otherwise we have an occupying force on our shores, one that if it turned violent, oh man… I don’t even want to think about it.

The Rally is so far peaceful. And I hope it stays that way, but we have to address the problem, and fast. We all need to get on board with this simple fact, no matter what is done, there is NOT going to be a solution that makes anyone overly happy. Let’s just buckle down and do what NEEDS to be done rather than what we WANT done. If we don’t lead the way, then the Illegals WILL. That is NOT a pretty thought!

Ok Flame away, we all know that those in power look at this site, let's start giving them some ideas.

[Danae]

Because that is the underlying implicit implication. They are implying that they can seriously mess things up in any number of ways. They are right. If we want the upper hand, they we have to make them react POSITIVLY in a direction we want them to go in. Manipulative, yes, but frankly what options are there? To be out IN FRONT of this is ESSENTIAL! Otherwise we are reacting and that is an infinitely LESS powerful position to be in.

[FloridianBushFan]

They will never become loyal to the United States. If they were they would not be shouting down the US and waving Mexican or other nationality's flags. They would not be burning and stomping on American flags if they cared about the United States. The are just using our taxpayers money to eat, for helthcare, for college, for welfare. While many American citizens are doing without. They just want a free ride.

They broke the law and need to be sent home.

It is not fair to grant these lawbreakers and criminals amnesty , while thousand other immigrants are trying to come to this country legally because they do want a better life and want to be loyal to the US.

[Danae]

I do not disagree with you. But just how do you suggest we remove 11+ Million people? That is a LOGISTIC NIGHTMARE! Like I said I don't disagree, it irks me to no end that I am a law abiding citizen that is basically a SECOND CLASS CITIZEN to a Mexican Illegal, who gets free health care, doesn't pay taxes, gets to send his kids to school for FREE and doesn't have to face ANY consequences!!! It pisses me off! But that is NOT the issue. The issue IS what to do that WILL make them part of society rather than freakin LEECHES off of it!

[jocon307]

Here are my ideas on this subject:

1. SECURE THE SOUTHERN BORDER, lo siento Mexico, but we can't have criminals crossing back and forth at will.

2. SECURE THE INTERNAL/INTERNATIONAL BORDERS, shorten visa times, ensure that visa holders leave as scheduled, demand that visitors arrive with a return ticket already purchased, etc.

3. END BILINGUAL EDUCATION. Just end it, right now, tomorrow.

4. ENFORCE LABOR LAWS, I'd just like to know if these workers are so "cheap" because of the many laws that are being evaded by their employers. This also leaves the workers at a severe disadvantage such as not being covered by worker's comp, etc.

5. INCREASE PENALTIES FOR CRIMES COMMITTED BY ILLEGALS. This should at least discourage the worst element from coming here/staying here. Maybe not, since many would probably rather do 15-life in a USA jail that on the streets of Mexico, but I can't help that. Crime committed by a citizen gets 5 years, by an illegal 15 years, etc.

6. DEMAND MEXICO ACT AS A PARTNER IN FIGHTING CRIME, as opposed to a haven for criminals. Otherwise punish the Nation, I'm not sure how, but I'm sure there are ways.

7. STOP THE LOTTERY for legal immigration. If WE decide we need 400,000 Mexicans a year to bus tables and clean hotel rooms, good, set a quota for that. If WE decide we need 100,000 Aisans to be doctors, nurses, etc. set a quota for that. NO MORE LOTTERY, we pick and chose how many come from where.

After these issues are addressed I'd be willing to discuss "amnesty", but with a REAL fine, about $10,000 not $2,000.

[Danae]

I agree 100%. How do we do that?

[Danae]

Excellent Ideas! I LOVE the way you think! Can you send that to every congressman and the President! That is the most practical list I have yet seen! Short, simple, to the point, and I think it has a shot at working!

[Danae]

BTTT

[freeangel]

Gwinnett county has about 90 new ILLEGALS coming in every week to do the jobs that "Americans won't do". What do you suppose they will do when there are not enough of those jobs? I must assume, since they had no qualms breaking the law to get here, they will have no qualms about breaking other laws to support themselves and send back money to Mexico. Interesting that my neighborhood has had three burglaries in the last few weeks. I wonder who is doing them?

[freeangel]

"How do you suggest we remove 11+million people'?

send them home one by one and suspend the business license of those who hire ILLEGALS.

[FloridianBushFan]

Much like the guy in post 24 says, for starters. Enforce the laws we have including fining company's and employers who hire illegals. Get them to stop hiring illegals, stop paying for Medicare,school and welfare for all of them and they will start leaving, cause there will be no reason for them to stay. Continue to use INS along to deport them. Instead of using the money to take care of them, start offering it as rewards to American citizens who report illegal immigrants. Over time they will go away if we stop catering to them.

[Ready2go]

"Ok ok ! I know that is not a popular idea! Come up with a better one! :)"

Enforce the laws we already have. When we catch a illegal send them back home where they came from.

Almost every week I hear on the police scanner our LEO's stopping a car full of illegals and they have to let them go, because INS won't come & get them.

If every state could send them back home where they belong it wouldn't take to long to evict all the illegals.

Build the wall...make it harder to get in here.

Build new military bases right along the border.

Arrest and fine employers who hire illegals...dry up their incomes & they'll leave on their own.

[tertiary01]

Let me know where your Utopia is located.

Two weeks ago ago all I saw was well clothed, well fed, fairly prosperous looking persons from a certain ethnic pursuasion, daring the ones who created the coveted environment that they want to take advantage of and invade, to apply to them the laws we all have to abide by. They crossed the line as far as I am concerned.

[cripplecreek]

Enforce the laws. Jail for crimminal CEOs who hire them. Deportation.

[GarySpFc]

That would take most of the ENTIRE National guard. I am not opposed to the idea, it just isn't even slightly practical.

Letting these aliens to stay here and rip our beloved country apart is a helluva lots less practical. I am not against immigration as long as it is legal, but illegal immigration is downright evil.

“I tell you the truth, anyone who sneaks over the wall of a sheepfold, rather than going through the gate, must surely be a thief and a robber![1] John 10:1

Proverbs 17:15 15 Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent— the LORD detests them both.

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THE BIBLE AND THE BORDER: ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION FROM A CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE

--Robert Klein Engler

HE IS AN ILLINOIS MINUTEMAN!!

(CHICAGO--7 Nov. '05) Most social observers agree that the United States is a very religious country. By all measures of religiosity, the U. S. ranks high. At least 85 percent of the U. S. population claims they believe in God. Church attendance is high in the U. S. and so are donations to religious groups. With such a large number of citizens holding religious beliefs, it is little wonder that these beliefs are beginning to enter the debate over illegal immigration. To some observers it may seem that God and the border patrol are going to meet head-on.

If the U. S. is a very religious country, then it is also a predominantly Christian country. Some 80 percent of Americans identify themselves as Christians. Yale professor S. P. Huntington argues that Anglo-Protestant Christian beliefs are at the core of traditional American values. Anglo-Protestant beliefs, however, have changed and developed through the centuries since the founding of the nation. From the doorway of a storefront church on the south side of Chicago to the stained-glass windows of New York City's St. Patrick's Cathedral, the U. S. offers multiple expressions of the Christian faith.

Many Christians are now caught up in the debate about illegal immigration. Some do not know what to do to stop illegal immigration while at the same time living a faith that asks its believers to practice charity and forgiveness. Other Christians mistakenly believe that groups who are against illegal immigration, groups like the Minuteman Project, are immoral and dangerous. These Christians believe that illegal immigrants should be seen as people who need our assistance and compassion, not our judgment and condemnation.

Does the Bible and Christian theology have anything to add to the illegal immigration debate? Are Christians supposed to act one way or another on this social issue? I think Christianity does have some answers to the moral questions raised by illegal immigration. These answers are to be found both in Christian scripture and theology. In my view it is possible to be both a good Christian and have secure borders. It is also possible to demand illegal immigrants be deported and to practice Christian charity.

In chapter 13 of the apostle Paul's Letter to the Romans, the English translation reads, "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed..." (Romans 13:1-2). Clearly, this is advice to Christians to follow the laws of their nation and to respect the laws of other nations.

When people come to the U. S. illegally, they are committing a crime. They are doing something that is against the governing authorities of the U. S. Illegal immigrants are not good Christians from Paul's perspective. Illegal immigrants may have reasons for breaking U. S. laws, but those reasons do not excuse their illegal actions. We should not let charity and compassion blind us from the criminal act illegal immigrants commit.

Those who work in a law-abiding way against illegal immigration and those who ask that the laws of the U. S. be enforced are being good Christians in doing so. Likewise, those who demand that illegal immigrants be detained and deported respect the governing authorities of their nation. In line with Paul's argument, they are doing what good Christians ought to do.

This is not to say that illegal immigrants should be treated badly. Christians practice charity and respect for the individual, but they do not condone law breaking. Law-abiding citizens of the U. S. have every right to make sure their borders are secure and that illegal immigrants are removed from their country as quickly and humanely as possible.

There are ideas implied in Paul's other writings that also shed light on the contemporary issue of illegal immigration. In his Letter to Philemon, Paul address the issue of what is to be done about a runaway slave. In short, Paul sends back the runaway slave, Onesimus, and encourages his master, Philemon, to accept and forgive him. This may seem an unusual act by Paul to those who know that under Roman law, the master had absolute authority over the life and person of the slave.

Although illegal immigrants are not slaves the way Onesimus was a slave in the apostle Paul's time, we can see illegal immigrants today as persons running away from their moral obligations to improve their own country and not run down ours. If that is the case, then it is certainly a moral and Christian thing to encourage illegal immigrants to return home and make life better in their own country.

Moving from scripture to the domain of Christian theology, we learn that moral actions have both an objective and subjective component. The theologian Thomas Aquinas held that both subjective intention and objective consequence are necessary in making a moral judgment. In one of Thomas's examples, while out hunting it is better to kill your father believing he is a stag, than to kill a stag believing it is your father.

From the point of view of the moral theology of Thomas Aquinas, we may judge illegal immigrants from Mexico from both a subjective and objective point of view. Objectively, illegal immigrants are breaking U. S. immigration laws, but do these criminals have a subjective intention that outweighs the objective criminal act? Is breaking U. S. immigration laws justified because it is the only way poor Mexicans can feed their families, or do illegal immigrants who come to the U. S. have another choice?

Coming to the U. S. illegally is not the only choice poor Mexicans can make to improve their lives. They could also choose to stay in Mexico and work to make Mexico a better country. In fact, as good Christians it is their moral obligation to do this. It is better to improve Mexico than to be a criminal in the U. S. Illegal immigration may be the easy way out, but it is not the moral way. Christians are supposed to do what is good, even if the good is difficult to do.

Although Christianity encourages acts of charity, we cannot be both charitable and law breakers. We cannot rob Peter to pay Paul. The Archbishop of Mexico City should be encouraged to prevent Mexicans from coming illegally to the U. S. He should encourage Mexicans to work for Christian social change in Mexico instead of criticizing U. S. immigration policies. Unless the Mexican state changes, many Mexican citizens will never be able to have a fulfilled life. Nor can they find fulfillment by breaking U. S. immigration laws. To push the poor from your door to your neighbor's door is not an example of Christian charity.

It remains to be seen what other religious questions will be raised about illegal immigration to the U. S. It seems clear for the moment that as the debate over illegal immigration grows, so, too will the theological and scriptural debate over this issue grow. It may very well be that just as liberal Christianity in the U. S. inspired the civil rights movement of the late 20th century, so, conservative Christianity will inspire the secure border movement of the early 21st century.

Robert Klein Engler lives in Chicago. He is an adjunct professor at Roosevelt University. His book, A WINTER OF WORDS, about the turmoil at Daley College, is available from amazon.com.

[ncountylee]

But just how do you suggest we remove 11+ Million people?

Enforce employment laws and stop the transfer of money back to their turd holes and many, if not most, of the illegals will leave on their own.

[Kimberly GG]

WATCHING FOX?

Live coverage....illegals starting to get confrontational with those against amnesty!

[getmeouttaPalmBeachCounty_FL]

I thought Texas had trespassing laws.

[tertiary01]

ADD: 8. REFORMING CHILD LABOR LAWS so willing teenagers can do the jobs I did 40 years ago. After all, the workforce that illegal ag workers really replaced were US teenagers working on their summer vacations.

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

Roll over and spread your legs in the fear that CRIMINALS and INVADERS will riot.

[mystery-ak]

Well, at least they are waving American Flags this time...