Posted on 03/30/2006 3:17:30 PM PST by paltz
By Michael Conlon
CHICAGO (Reuters) - A study of more than 1,800 patients who underwent heart bypass surgery has failed to show that prayers specially organized for their recovery had any impact, researchers said on Thursday.
In fact, the study found some of the patients who knew they were being prayed for did worse than others who were only told they might be prayed for -- though those who did the study said they could not explain why.
The patients in the study at six U.S. hospitals included 604 who were actually prayed for after being told they might or might not be; another 597 patients who were not prayed for after being told they might or might not be; and a group of 601 who were prayed for and told they would be the subject of such prayer.
The praying was done by members of three Christian groups in monasteries and elsewhere -- two Catholic and one Protestant -- who were given written prayers and the first name and initial of the last name of the prayer subjects. The prayers started on the eve of or day of surgery and lasted for two weeks.
Among the first group -- who were prayed for but only told they might be -- 52 percent had post-surgical complications compared to 51 percent in the second group, the ones who were not prayed for though told they might be. In the third group, who knew they were being prayed for, 59 percent had complications.
After 30 days, however, the death rates and incidence of major complications was about the same across all three groups, said the study published in the American Heart Journal.
COMPLICATIONS AFTER SURGERY
"Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on whether complications occurred (and) patients who were certain that intercessors would pray for them had a higher rate of complications than patients who were uncertain but did receive intercessory prayer," the study said.
There is "no clear explanation" for the latter finding, it added.
The study -- called the largest of its kind -- was designed only to try to measure the impact of intercessory prayer on heart surgery patients, an intervention that some earlier reports had showed seemed to be beneficial.
"Our study was never intended to address the existence of God or the presence or absence of intelligent design in the universe" or to compare the efficacy of one prayer form over another, said the Rev. Dean Marek, director of chaplain services at the Mayo Clinic, one of the authors.
The patients in the study had similar religious profiles with most believing in spiritual healing and almost all also thinking that friends or relatives would be praying for them as well, he said.
"One caveat is that with so many individuals receiving prayer from friends and family, as well as personal prayer, it may be impossible to disentangle the effects of study prayer from background prayer," Manoj Jain of Baptist Memorial Hospital, Memphis, Tennessee, another author of the report.
The authors said one possible limitation to their study was that those doing the special praying had no connection or acquaintance with the subjects of their prayer, which would not usually be the norm.
"Private or family prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, and the results of this study do not challenge this belief," the report concluded.
LOL!
So the mother praying for her dying child doesn't have enough love if the baby dies?
If what you say is true, the very loving and very faithful would NEVER lose a loved one. That's simply not the case.
This IS in fact a worthwhile study, because other studies have purported to show a benefit to intercessory prayer. I didn't see people here condemn THOSE studies. It's only when the results are not what people want do they claim the study is flawed, or meaningless, or show a misunderstanding of what prayer can or can't do.
The fact is, many people believe intercessory prayer works. This study tried to determine if that is true. There's nothing wrong with that.
So the mother praying for her dying child doesn't have enough love if the baby dies?
If what you say is true, the very loving and very faithful would NEVER lose a loved one. That's simply not the case.
This IS in fact a worthwhile study, because other studies have purported to show a benefit to intercessory prayer. I didn't see people here condemn THOSE studies. It's only when the results are not what people want do they claim the study is flawed, or meaningless, or show a misunderstanding of what prayer can or can't do.
The fact is, many people believe intercessory prayer works. This study tried to determine if that is true. There's nothing wrong with that.
That wasn't the context I meant. I was thinking about prayer of the moment.
If someone prays that a total recovery from cancer will occur because of a successful surgery, they may be dismayed later to learn that there are still more tumors.
And yet... after successful radiation treatment, the patient may be cured of cancer. So, the prayer was answered, just not in the timeframe that the person who was praying expected.
I think God can, and probably does, answer prayers for strength or courage in the affirmitive. Things that make you a better person. That would serve a purpose important to Him.
But the conditions of this sinful world are such that bad things happen. They happen to everyone and they always will unless and until the prophecies of Revelation are fulfilled and there is a final judgment.
But I'd never see a doctor if I thought the power of prayer was sufficient and effective. None of us would.
John 9:31 -- "Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him."
Maybe they just picked lousy people to pray.
And yet, I'd like to credit God because I survived my cancer. It seems only proper since I prayed and begged him for a healing. On the other hand, I have seen people far better than I am, not be healed, who had legions of people pray for their recovery.
I don't know if what you wrote is actually true. I can't prove it either way. If God doesn't really intervene and heal people, then he just might let nature take it's course. That thought doesn't bring me much comfort.
sw
I don't know whether what I wrote is true or not, either. I'm not trying to peddle it as fact.
I'm glad you survived your cancer, and perhaps God is responsible. My guess is that He isn't because we've all seen fine God-fearing people actively engaged in doing God's work struck down. You'd think those might be the most likely to receive divine intervention.
I don't see the evidence that God intervenes in these matters. And I don't think he needs our prayers in order to intervene in the event that He does. I don't see how we can possibly push His buttons.
But that's a personal opinion, and I have no problem with anyone believing differently. Faith, by its very nature, is an intensely personal thing.
That's sounds logical, but faith and prayer aren't logical. The people that did this study came to a logical conclusion, but only if you look at prayer as always being answered according to your wishes.
I think God gives each person what they need because we all are individuals. He made us that way. Some people need more at different times than others. It sounds like you are one of people that need very little affirmation from God. Your faith is sufficient to carry you through this life. Others need more and God reaches out to them occasionally and gives them what they need to carry on.
We should NEVER believe anything that was done by the MSM, in the name of Jesus, that was done in Illinois. They have obviously banned religion (just like guns), so ANY study in His name will be bogus. LOL Besides, I KNOW prayer for healing works. ;o)
For the believer, there is no where else one would want to go! There is faith and knowledge based on previous experiences that God is indeed faithful, that He knows our heart and our frame, and that He deals with us as His dearly beloved creations.
An example in history of "whether or not" living:
[Nebuchadnezzar responded]"... what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?"[Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to the king] "If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up." -- Daniel 3: 15b, 17 - 18
That's Group C of my proposed followup study!
If what you say is true, the very loving and very faithful would NEVER lose a loved one. That's simply not the case.
It's only when the results are not what people want do they claim the study is flawed, or meaningless, or show a misunderstanding of what prayer can or can't do.
The fact is, many people believe intercessory prayer works. This study tried to determine if that is true. There's nothing wrong with that.
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PERHAPS my English was inadequate . . . maybe I was too brief, or something.
I do NOT recall listing all the NECESSARY conditions for effective, favorably answered healing prayer. If I did while on brain fade, please list them again, for me.
IF I had have listed all the NECESSARY conditions for effective, favorably answered healing prayer, I'd have listed first the SOMETIMES --only-- necessary one--God's will.
For whatever flaws Kenneth Hagin may have had--he was a very effective teacher and pray-er re healing and a lot of other prayer needs and problems. However, most of his disciples seem to gloss over a very interesting incident in his ministry.
There was a dear widow--a very Godly, saintly woman who had been a cheer leader of his virtually from the beginning, as I recall. She came down with heart trouble, I think it was. Hagin was told he'd never live very long because of heart trouble as a child so this was close to his . . . uhhhh . . . heart.
Besides that, the woman was a dear woman who believed absolutely the same as Hagin did in the effectiveness of teaching The Word, confessing The Word etc. She lived full of faith. She had prayed successfully for others to be healed.
Hagin came and prayed for her several times.
She got worse.
She died.
This troubled Hagin greatly and he seriously sought God about why--what happened. God VERY FORCEFULLY AND STERNLY REPLIED that it was NONE of Hagin's business AND FURTHER MORE, HAGIN WAS NOT TO BOTHER ABOUT IT OR MENTION IT AGAIN.
Some things are between God and the individual. We don't know what's involved. We just can know that God is ALTOGETHER GOOD; ALTOGETHER LOVING--ESPECIALLY TOWARD HIS CHILDREN--whether it seems that way to our finiteness at the time, from our perspective, or not.
There's the story of the two angels stopping by a couple farm houses. In the first case, the farmer was wealthy with a huge farm. But he showed the angels no grace and put them up in the cold basement with not even a bed. Before the angels left, the Sr angel patched a hole in the basement wall.
At the next farm house, a very, very poor one, the older couple put them up in their own bed and slept on the floor. The next day, the farmer's only cow was dead.
The Jr angel was quite upset. Why had the Sr angel patched the vain, stingy farmer's basement wall and why had he allowed the farmer's only cow to die?
The Sr angel answered that there was gold and jewels hidden in the wall and he patched the wall to keep the evil farmer from finding them. In the case of the poor couple, the angel of death had come in the night for the farmer's wife but accepted the cow instead.
God's ways really are beyond our finding out. Vain people may pontificate ad nauseam about their constructions on God's ways . . . but most of the time . . . such noise is just . . . noise.
When the rain storm was headed up river in the classic pattern--threatening our drying, mown hay--my mother only had time for a brief prayer. The rain fell on four sides of the drying hay but not the hay. Our survival depended on that dry hay.
When mother saw a rare NM twister pick up the tin roofing off our barns and chicken houses and start carrying it toward the very humble adobe mud hut we lived in--she had time only for an even briefer prayer--Oh, "Jesus, Help us!" At about 7 years old, I remember going out and measuring with a ruler as I was a bit incredulous. The tin, on the two sides that threatened the house--was virtually a straight line 1.5" from the house--a sea of tin that had stopped at an invisible line--not a single piece touching the house.
You can deny the power of touching God's heart in prayer if you wish. I can't. I won't.
It's an awesome enough miracle that GOD HAS CHOSEN TO INVITE, ASK, EVEN INSIST, THAT WE SHARE IN THIS BOOT CAMP ADVENTURE WITH HIM VIA PRAYER. What an incredible thing!
But He does NOT march to our script. He is NOT a vending machine. He is NOT our butler. And His ways really are beyond our finding out.
By the same token, He says a lot about His character and His ways in Scripture. We can learn a lot from Scripture and from practicing our walk with Him. But we won't learn near all of it.
It is His Nature, His delight to give good gifts to His kids. But sometimes, what we think would be good would be the worst for us.
There were thousands of deaths with the Tsunami. I have no doubt that the innocent children were immediately in God's Presence and thereby in a far better place than this one. The Tsunami rescued them from the pains and struggles of this life and dimension.
We cannot have LOVE without the genuine, true option to choose NONLOVE with true consequences for each. Choosing NONLOVE as individuals, neighborhoods, communities, States, Nations and as human critters accrues a LOT of consequences--a LOT of suffering whether it's always harvested quickly, or not.
But sooner or later, the universal law of harvesting what's planted will manifest itself. People may deny it; rail against it; pretend it's not true, etc. But sooner or later, it's true.
Christ's Blood, forgiveness; acceptance of same on confession and repentence, turning from darkness to His Light--all that--miraculously can intersect SOME of that reaping what's sown. But often, even the forgiven still experience educational consequences.
I don't know what God has in store for you Bubbatuck. I suspect some interesting educational experiences. You will certainly see things which are inexplicable in the natural--in the REALITY = CHANCE PLUS TIME only construction on reality.
Some of those things will be charades from the dark lord of hell. I pray that God also gives you some contrasting experiences to observe and/or experience from His wealth of Love and care. These are certainly dramatic times and the war between God and evil will become much more dramatic and overt in the coming months and years. You will likely have repeated opportunities to choose yet again. On the other hand, none of us really has a guarantee of living another day in this boot camp.
The mother's Love may not have been sufficient for the situation. God evidently had other priorities. He really does know best.
I don't recall ranting at the study. I merely pointed out a flaw in it's construction and the conclusions drawn. In a lot of respects, it may be a useful one--showing that the prayer of strangers without a genuine loving connection to the focus of the prayers may be less effective. That could be good to know.
So, a loving father would give good directions to his son driving to a distant university. Therefore if the son gets lost and drives off a cliff, the father's love and directions were terrible? I don't think so. Life has lots of other factors that enter into all situations. Only God knows all of them. Only God judges perfectly, righteously amidst, amongst, with all of them.
So I would suggest that some humility in your observations might do you better than the lack of it.
So "Humility" means I must reject the study? I don't believe so.
The fact is, others have made testable claims about the power of prayer. Studies have been proven showing a tentative benefit to intercessory prayer. Nobody complained about those studies.
Now a bigger study, meant to address deficiencies in the other studies, shows no benefit. They're testing the very TESTABLE idea that intercessory prayer has benefit to those being prayed for.
Of course, if you believe the wrong type of people were praying, then you're free to fund and conduct your OWN study using the right people - as long as your standards are rigorous and reproducible, you'd become quite famous, I imagine.
It's not a great pleasure when folks put their words in my fingers.
I didn't ask that you reject the study.
Do whatever the sam hill you want with the study! Sheesh!
I even suggested it was useful in showing what might not work.
Given your . . . reading of my post . . . I think I'll keep my own counsel about your reading and interpretation of the study.
I'm more than a little underwhelmed, however.
God heals people for the same reason that He does anything else. For His own glory.
Frankly, I would say that a by-pass patients prayer is answered, by the technology available to correct blockage, but more importantly, if a person has heart disease they are truly blessed that they did not die of a massive coronary.
I'm sorry, I certainly didn't mean to defend. But I'm also not interested in a theological treatise.
In my experience, it's usually not conducive to a good conversation to tell others they need more humility. It implies a perverse sense of superiority on the part of the one demanding such humility. Would a truly humble person judge another's level of humility?
Anyway, humility has little to do with this discussion. My point is that this, like polls, are usually rejected immediately by people who don't like the results, and I think that's a poor way to evaluate information.
For this discussion, the question is whether or not intercessory prayer is beneficial for the person being prayed for. This study seems to say the answer is "No". I find it funny that nobody seemed aggrieved when previous studies showed the answer might be "Yes".
Hank should of said he did not know why God heals some and not others. To say he heals some to "feel good", invites the notion that he gets some real sick so he could also "feel good". It is a road best not traveled. Like I said he should of said he did not know, and left it like that. Saying it is for "God's glory" is just like saying we do not know, for who are we to second guess his decisions. Hank by speaking for God, comes off as somewhat silly, in my opinion.
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