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Who Is Right about the Right to Bear Arms?
Stanford (Alumni Magazine) ^ | March/April 2006 | Stanford Magazine

Posted on 03/13/2006 2:39:12 PM PST by Atlas Sneezed

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To: satchmodog9
Even if the states rights issue were valid, the state is also the enemy of freedom.

State's rights aren't constitutional? The rights of states are antithetical to individual rights? WTF are you talking about?

41 posted on 03/13/2006 3:54:24 PM PST by delacoert (imperat animus corpori, et paretur statim: imperat animus sibi, et resistitur. -AUGUSTINI)
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To: tpaine

Well, you know what I think about that. The First Amendment states "Congress shall make no law..." The Second does not. The "home rule" folks might try to convince people that the State governments can restrict freedom of speech - good luck - but I don't see a lot of wiggle-room in the Second. It says pretty much what it says.


42 posted on 03/13/2006 3:54:48 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: advance_copy
A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I think it means, that if a state wants to keep a militia for it's security, the People have the right and duty to keep their eye on the militia and well regulate them.

43 posted on 03/13/2006 4:02:19 PM PST by rock58seg (Republicans on ports,As funny as Democrats pretending to know about Natl Security and quail hunting.)
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To: Beelzebubba

It's really quite simple.


'Rulers LOVE Unarmed Peasants!!!'


44 posted on 03/13/2006 4:05:03 PM PST by PushinTin
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To: Billthedrill; everyone
But you must admit Bill, -- that there are a lot of freepers that agree that the Bill of Rights and the 14th amendment do not protect our right to bear arms.

I think this 'states rights' position is a delusion brought on by the idea that "the majority" in a community can control the life, liberty, or property of anyone else, using laws that 'prohibit evil'.

Any comments?

45 posted on 03/13/2006 4:05:50 PM PST by tpaine
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To: Beelzebubba
"The Supreme Court has done little to settle the matter."

True. But the lower federal courts have consistently ruled that the second amendment only protects a collective RKBA from federal infringement -- collective meaning "as part of a militia".

An individual RKBA is protected by the citizen's state constitution.

46 posted on 03/13/2006 4:06:38 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: delacoert
delacoert wrote:

State's rights aren't constitutional? The rights of states are antithetical to individual rights? WTF are you talking about?

See #45, and feel free to comment.

47 posted on 03/13/2006 4:11:32 PM PST by tpaine
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To: Panzerlied

Yeah, that'll be next, LOL!


48 posted on 03/13/2006 4:12:30 PM PST by Diana in Wisconsin (Save The Earth. It's The Only Planet With Chocolate.)
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To: Shooter 2.5

"I went shooting today and not a single fetus was harmed"

I call dibs! :)


49 posted on 03/13/2006 4:13:22 PM PST by Diana in Wisconsin (Save The Earth. It's The Only Planet With Chocolate.)
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To: Nova
"'If it were written today, it might be put: "Since a well-regulated militia is necessary tot he security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged.'"

The lower federal courts have interpreted the second amendment as "Since a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms as part of a militia shall not be infringed by the federal government".

50 posted on 03/13/2006 4:13:55 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: groanup
Thank you for that analysis.

However I can't imagine you making the following assumption:
And even the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), staunch defender of the rest of the Bill of Rights, stands by and does nothing.

The ACLU was founded by an avowed Communist for the express purpose of using the Constitution against itself for the best interests of the Communist Party.

It has not announced any changes to that policy.

51 posted on 03/13/2006 4:16:41 PM PST by rock58seg (Republicans on ports,As funny as Democrats pretending to know about Natl Security and quail hunting.)
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To: delacoert
Gun control advocates have argued for the states’ rights model, which deems the key phrase “a well regulated militia,” and speaks only to a collective right that could be exercised by citizens rallying against federal tyranny or outside aggression.

Answering his assertion. I didn't use the best choice of words. Sorry.

52 posted on 03/13/2006 4:21:20 PM PST by satchmodog9 (Most people stand on the tracks and never even hear the train coming)
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To: Beelzebubba
Since all other entries in the "Bill of Rights" addresses individual rights, it is safe to assume that the Second entry also addresses individual rights.

Parsing the grammer is a second strong clue.

53 posted on 03/13/2006 4:22:22 PM PST by GingisK
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To: robertpaulsen
paulsen wrote:

An individual RKBA is protected by the citizen's state constitution.

Except where you've claimed that "bans" are "found to be constitutional."

The City of Chicago bans handguns under home rule powers and it was found to be constitutional.
45 posted on 03/12/2006 7:09:14 AM PST by robertpaulsen

54 posted on 03/13/2006 4:23:13 PM PST by tpaine
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To: groanup
Isn't it possible that the protection of an individual RKBA is found elsewhere? Bear in mind that the BOR was an afterthought -- that some thought it wasn't even necessary. Without a BOR, where were the citizens to find the protection of this important right?

How about this? An individual RKBA is protected by the state constitution, and the formation of an armed citizens militia is protected from federal infringement by the U.S. Constitution.

What a novel concept, yes? It's got federalism written all over it!

55 posted on 03/13/2006 4:23:34 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: Cobra64

Awe, Man! A new guy won this year. Some new friend of DH's, a ringer from Maine of all places! (He's a customer of DH's in our computer consulting biz.) Brother Steve was second, neighbor Randy was third, three other guys and my SIL Kellie were next...and I was last; but the rest of them shoot regularily at their "clubs." Guess I'd better get right on that. Now, if I still had my M-16 flipped to auto they wouldn't stand a chance, LOL!

But man, I love to shoot. It's just nice being outside and trying out different guns. It's just fun, fun, fun. :) DH has a slight disability (repaired, though still problematic bad discs in his neck) so he doesn't shoot anymore, but keeps meticulous score.

First prize was an Amish-raised roasting chicken. Second prize was a Cornish Rock Hen, LOL! Nothing for the rest of us losers except a fun day. :)


56 posted on 03/13/2006 4:24:44 PM PST by Diana in Wisconsin (Save The Earth. It's The Only Planet With Chocolate.)
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To: robertpaulsen
'The lower federal courts have interpreted the second amendment as "Since a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms as part of a militia shall not be infringed by the federal government".'

Yea, I've seen a bit on that. Pretty ridiculous, huh?

57 posted on 03/13/2006 4:26:11 PM PST by Nova
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To: tpaine
Well, I'll let them speak for themselves. If I understand the argument correctly it's based on the 10th Amendment:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The question is whether the 2nd Amendment's mandate to not infringe is covered by "nor prohibited by it to the States." ("It" here meaning the Constitution, of course). In my opinion it is so covered. But I'm not a lawyer.

58 posted on 03/13/2006 4:27:15 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: conservativewasp
"... what happens when the individual state is the tyrant?"

Do you think the Founding Fathers ever thought such a thing could happen? Yes, they feared the thought of a tyranical federal government amd put constitutional safeguards in place. But their own state -- a tyranny? Never.

59 posted on 03/13/2006 4:27:52 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: Beelzebubba
What does that mean exactly?

What it means to me is...when I hear hoofbeats, I expect horses...not zebras.

Read it. Understand it. Act on it. Period.

60 posted on 03/13/2006 4:27:59 PM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (Crime cannot be tolerated. Criminals thrive on the indulgences of society's understanding.)
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