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How long will it go on? If you look at the debate in the same way that we view the crackup of the democratic party, I think the answer is self-evident. The majority of Americans rejects Evolution utterly. The best numbers they have are 6 percent in the ruling party believing it in undilute form and 13 percent total. The soft numbers give them a nod up to 40 percent; but, it's a nod, not wholesale support. The numbers are soft and are where Creationists are gaining much of their ground. The best descriptor for the evo crowd right now is panic. They don't want to admit it; but, the evidence of their actions betrays it day in and day out. The fervor with which they hit ID is full scale lunacy. And they don't have the slightest clue that it's tangiential. ID is not religious - has nothing to do with religion. But, it serves to make their fight a two front war with both fronts advancing against them. They may think they've won something with court battles and schoolboards; but, the majority public is with Creation and ID. And you can't legislate or adjudicate that. They have to prove their case and cannot. A key point to make is that they've pretended the theory is scientific. The crowd doesnt' believe that when it is discussed forthrightly. The longtime hidingplace has been behind science. When people don't find it scientific and they're hiding behind science.. just does them no favors. The copout on proofs drives many away as well. Once you beg off proofs, you've lost the audience with no real way to overcome it. The lunacy is not at critical mass yet; but, when they're referring to Ken Ham and Dr. Dino as dangerous threats akin to the Taliban, it isn't far off. The fat lady has been warming up for a while. I wouldn't be too surprised when she starts belting it out. There is just too much being learned each year and the best they can do is take something that discredits them and spin it to look the opposite way

We've refuted Havoc's rants time and time again, but he has proven himself incapable of admitting even the most obvious of errors. Take for example this documented case where he knowingly kept telling the same proven falsehood.

So it has proven pointless to try to get him to realize any of his various fallacies, errors, and falsehoods. It just bounces off his forehead with a sharp *ping*.

But if anyone else wants to see any of Havoc's claims addressed, say the word. Otherwise, I'll presume that no one else is taking him seriously either, and we can all use the time we save on better things.

But since I already had material relevant to his final "point", I can't resist addressing one of his fantasies now:

it isn't far off. The fat lady has been warming up for a while. I wouldn't be too surprised when she starts belting it out. There is just too much being learned each year

Ah, yes, the old "imminent demise of evolution".

People have been predicting that was about to happen "any day now" for oh, 150 years now.

For some perspective, check out this web page on The Imminent Demise of Evolution. Anti-evolutionists have been continuously predicting that evolution was about to come crashing down any day now since 1840... That page contains quotes predicting the "any day now" crash of evolution from 1825, 1840, 1850, 1878, 1895, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1912, 1922, 1929, 1935, 1940, 1961, 1963, 1970, 1975, 1976, 1980, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005.

Sample:

"It must be stated that the supremacy of this philosophy has not been such as was predicted by its defenders at the outset. A mere glance at the history of the theory during the four decades that it has been before the public shows that the beginning of the end is at hand."
-- Prof. Zockler, The Other Side of Evolution, 1903, p. 31-32 cited in Ronald L. Numbers, Creationism In Twentieth-Century America: A Ten-Volume Anthology of Documents, 1903-1961 (New York & London, Garland Publishing, 1995)

But surely, Havoc is finally right *this* time, eh? Dream on. The anti-evolutionists have been fantasizing about evolution crashing down since before the Civil War... Uh huh. Sure. Any day now.

Take for example this documented case where he knowingly kept telling the same proven falsehood.

Dude, that's BS. I asked him directly if he misrepresented the ages of the skins vis-a-vis the bones, and he said no, he just referred to a misrepresentation made by someone else.

I hope you're not chasing down anyone who commits a faux paux and never letting them forget it. That's not science either!!!!

I just don't understand why after all these years of science promoting TOE, so many people still reject it.

The public is more accepting of homosexuality than evolution.

For some perspective, check out this web page on The Imminent Demise of Evolution. Anti-evolutionists have been continuously predicting that evolution was about to come crashing down any day now since 1840... That page contains quotes predicting the "any day now" crash of evolution from 1825, 1840, 1850, 1878, 1895, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1912, 1922, 1929, 1935, 1940, 1961, 1963, 1970, 1975, 1976, 1980, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005.
Sample:

"It must be stated that the supremacy of this philosophy has not been such as was predicted by its defenders at the outset. A mere glance at the history of the theory during the four decades that it has been before the public shows that the beginning of the end is at hand." -- Prof. Zockler, The Other Side of Evolution, 1903, p. 31-32 cited in Ronald L. Numbers, Creationism In Twentieth-Century America: A Ten-Volume Anthology of Documents, 1903-1961 (New York & London, Garland Publishing, 1995) But surely, Havoc is finally right *this* time, eh? Dream on. The anti-evolutionists have been fantasizing about evolution crashing down since before the Civil War... Uh huh. Sure. Any day now.

Just for some perspective, scientists have the nature of matter itself absolutely figured out now , right?

*snickering* So bloody predictable.. "We're fierce, we're evolutionists..." Can't argue with free entertainment.