`Intelligent design' ban is proposed (Democrats to the Rescue!!)

Chicago Tribune ^ | 17 Feb 2006 | Tribune News Services

[gobucks]

MADISON, Wis. -- Two Democratic lawmakers introduced a bill to ban public schools from teaching "intelligent design" as science, saying "pseudo-science" should have no place in the classroom.

The proposal is the first of its kind in the country, the National Conference of State Legislatures said.

The measure would require science curriculums to describe only natural processes and follow definitions from the National Academy of Sciences.

Its sponsor, Rep. Terese Berceau, acknowledged the measure faces an uphill fight in a legislature where Republicans control both houses.

Berceau said science education is under attack across the country as proponents of intelligent design promote alternatives to Darwinian evolution. Intelligent design holds that details in nature are so complex they are best explained as products of a designer, not only unguided natural selection of mutations as with Darwin.

Critics say intelligent design is thinly disguised religion that lacks any basis in science. In December, a federal judge in Pennsylvania outlawed a school district's policy of reading a statement to classes citing intelligent design options.

[Coyoteman]

I can still shoot in the sixties.

Of course, that's only on a three hole course.

I used to shoot golf in the 70s.

Any hotter and I would quit!

[Cvengr]

Reread the post. I'm not aware I made any false assertion. Since I have no reason to doubt your veracity other than my personal experince, please provide a list of all the evolutionists I have read, then annotate which ones would make such a leap in logic, quantify that number of evolutionists and compare to the number of evolutionists I have read who would not make such a leap in logic, to justify your conclusion.

Unless of course you have found the evolutionist method of argument, to simply call other beliefs as false assertions to be more veritable.

[dr_lew]

Ah. What is reality? I'm really asking...

Yes, that's what science is trying to ascertain in the first place. I like the example of the center of the sun. It must be real! We think we know what the conditions are in some detail, but we can't directly measure them. I think for this reason it makes a good analogy with our knowledge of the deep past.

[wintertime]

Feel free to send your kids to a private school, or any of many other alternatives. No one's stopping you, and no one's going to sic the police on you for it if you do it without being a loon about it. ( Ichneumon)

Ichneumon,

The government has a price-fixed monopoly that is giving a product ( education) away for free. This creates a very hostile business environment for the creation of private schools.

Also...since the government extracts from the citizen the cost of running these schools by way of taxes, this also depletes the financial resources of the parent, thus making paying for private school or homeschool or moving less feasible.

When the parent finds private schools scarce and exclusive, and they are financially drained through taxes for government schools, the government then has the audacity to threaten police, court, and foster care action if the parent refuses to send their child to the government school.

Only a government could devise a system so fiendishly evil!

Once in the government school the child will be forced to sit through evolution or ID ( who ever is the biggest bully in the county) and will reap the political, cultural, and religious consequences of this "teaching".

You are correct. No one is going to "sic" police on anyone who is fortunate enough to find and be able to pay for a private school. The Government school educrats WILL send out police to those parents who can not find or afford private or homes schooling and will NOT send their child to the government school indoctrination camp.

[wintertime]

And it seems you are perfectly willing to advocate the threat of armed police, court, and foster care action to make certain that the government removes the "beam" from the eye of Gobucks children.
And,,,you seem content to threaten your fellow citizens with the sheriff's auction of their homes and businesses to pay for it. ( wintertime)

Ichneumon,

Anyone advocating for evolution or ID in a government school setting IS calling for an educational agenda that is funded by and forced upon resistant children through the threat of police, court, and foster care action.

So...although you may not recognize that government schools are funded through taxes ( collected by means of police action)this is indeed the case. This is how evolution and ID are funded. This is a violation of our human right to freedom of conscience.

Although you may be blind to the fact, many students ( through government price-fixed monopoly practices) are in the situation of having to use government schools and if they didn't police action would be taken against them.

This is how evolution or ID is funded. This is how it is forced upon resistant children and their parents.

Calling me or anyone else a loon does not make these basic facts about government school oppression go away.

[wintertime]

it's important for the sake of conservatism to a) try to get them to tone down a bit, and b) if that can't be done, at least show lurkers that it's possible to be science-literate *and* a conservative, come on in, there's room for all kinds, it's not all just folks itching to restart the Scopes trial. (Ichneumon) # 59

To Ichneumon,

I seriously doubt that you are a conservative. If you were you would not have written the following:

"There are plenty of alternatives if you don't like your local public school -- move, send the kids to a private school, homeschool without making waves, get elected to the school board, start a grassroots effort for change, etc." ( Ichneumon)#59

A true conservative knows that in many ( most) areas of the country there are not "plenty" of alternatives.

True conservatives KNOW that sending the kids to private school is impossible for many. Why? Because the government school price-fixed monopoly has made private schools scarce and exclusive.

A true conservative knows that government schools are sucking the life's blood out of its citizens thus making paying for a private schools impossible for many parents. Having to have two parents working also makes homeschool impossible for most.

A true conservative knows that moving isn't the answer either since the government schools are in the grip of the Democrats and the NEA. Just because a parent may be able to escape the evolution or ID bullies doesn't mean he won't run smack into some other Democratic/liberal/leftist/socialist nuttiness.

A true conservative wouldn't have written the following:

"That's how representative democracies work. Not everyone gets everything they want all the time. Most people are adult enough to learn to live with it, while working to change enough people's minds to get a different vote outcome next time. But you don't get to throw a tantrum and just refuse to pay your taxes." ( Ichneumon)

A true conservative would recognize that evolution or ID has political, cultural, and religious consequences and that freedom of conscience is not open to mob vote. It is a human right, a part of the human condition, or as Thomas Jefferson would say, "Endowed by our Creator".

You? A Conservative? I don't think so. You just failed several important litmus tests.

[wintertime]

Not so in a public school. You're stuck with your local school system. I had one child in public school for a short time, and I was the "speak-up" type of parent. The problem is, when you're outnumbered, you can speak up every single day and majority-rule will still dictate what your children do and learn. ( Tired of Taxes)

To Tired of Taxes,

Ah! YOU are are TRUE conservative. YOU understand that freedom of conscience is not up for "mob" vote.

YOU understand that we have a human right ( it is part of the human condition or an endowment of our Creator) to be free to associate with those of mutual choosing. This is a First Amendment Right that is enshrined in our federal Bill of Rights and is upheld, as well, in our state constitutions.

YOU understand that government schools trash our human right to free association every day of every school year.

This is something that Ichneumon doesn't get and therefore fails the most basic of conservative litmus tests.

[DoNotDivide]

You people tire me to no end. Your depths of intellectual dishonesty are staggering. I made my statement, as I'm entitled to do. You can keep going down the Communist utopian path of disinformation at your own peril.

[wintertime]

Too much exposure to religious belief posing as junk science must be bad for your mental health. (WestVirginiaRebel)

Few groups can boast the anti-evolutionists' rate of being wrong so often on so many topics. ( Ichneumon)

WestVirginaRebel and Ichneumon,

While I support the theory of evolution and want my own children knowledgable in the subject, the question isn't evolution or ID. Please note that the issue at hand is the teaching of evolution in the government schools.

Ah,,,government schools! FORCE is the problem!

While I personally support evolution, I would NEVER force this on resistant children who are in any school involuntarily.,,,,neither,,,,would I force other citizens to pay for forcing it on resistant children.

There is the little matter of freedom of conscience. If evolution is worthwhile those of us who support it should be able to use **persuasion** to encourage others to study it.

The solution: Begin the process of abolishing government education. What is needed is complete separation of SCHOOL and state!

[Havoc]

*snickering* So bloody predictable.. "We're fierce, we're evolutionists..." Can't argue with free entertainment.

[nmh]

Me: I have no clue on why bestiality isn't allowed and looked highly on.

You: Perhaps if you started a grass-roots effort...

Me: Since you are an evolutionist, it would be appropriate to start with YOU. Since I believe in God, er for you, "intelligent Design", bestiality is off limits for me. For you, you have no boundaries,being godless.

[nmh]

For you, you might want to mate with an ape since you believe that's where YOU were derived from.

As for me, I'm not derived from some ape and neither is my God whose image I was created in.

[Havoc]

According to CBS, the numbers are substantially different. 40 percent for evo when the totals are combined between true believers and the wishy-washy. 40 vs 46 for homosexuality.
So, the baseline observation is correct. Homosexuality has more support than evolution and in far shorter time. Moreover, most find it reprehensible behavior.. Just an interesting observation..

[wintertime]

Ichneumon,

Again, I simply can NOT believe that you are conservative. You wrote the followin in message #69:

"What I meant was if some folks here had their way and public schools were abolished, then education would "balkanize" into various islands of private schools and/or homeschooling. In that scenario, there would be a lot of liberal "enclaves" of private schools catering to liberals, and/or homeschooling focusing on liberal indoctrination." ( Ichneumon)

Ichneumon this is straight from the NEA talking points. So....do you really have this little faith and trust in the good sense and intelligence of the American people that they would "Balkinize" themselves!??? Huh?

Thankfully, true conservatives KNOW the true character, good sense, responsibility, and appreciation of diversity of the American citizen and they KNOW that this would not happen.

Even in the unique cases of the Amish we KNOW that even this group of people is fully integrated economically in the comerce of America and are well respected and welcomed by all of their neighbors in the communities in which they live.

Anyone who would post this statement is NOT a conservative.

You also wrote the following:


"Yes and no -- while there's a lot more liberal crap in public schools than most of us would like, it isn't (except in rare extreme cases) as bad as the kind of "echo-chamber" I was writing about, where it's liberal curricula taught to liberal students, with nary an opposing view or idea anywhere to be had. And again, parent involvement can go a long way towards bringing schools back to something closer to the center -- schools do lean liberal, often strongly, but when conservative parents fight for balance it can and does have an effect." ( Ichneumon)

Ichneumon, a true conservative would KNOW that we have a human right to freedom of association. It is WRONG and IMMORAL for government to force children into association with liberals, or conservatives, or even moderates.

A true conservative would KNOW that even if parents are involved attempt to make changes in the government school, it is WRONG and IMMORAL and against the human condition for any mob of voters or activists to impose their educational worldview ( which will have political, cultural, and religious content and consequences) on other citizens.

[AndrewC]

According to CBS, the numbers are substantially different.

According to almost every poll, those that believe God is not involved in the process are 15% of the population. For Republicans the number drops to half of that number.(this excludes those that did not understand the question)

http://www.pollingreport.com/science.htm

Origin of Human Life

CBS News Poll. Oct. 3-5, 2005. N=808 adults nationwide. MoE ± 4 (for all adults).
						.
"Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin of human beings? (1) Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, and God did not directly guide this process. (2) Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, but God guided this process. (3) God created human beings in their present form." Form X half-sample
						.
		Not Directly Guided By God	Guided By God	God Created In Present Form	Unsure
		%	%	%	%
	ALL adults	15	30	51	4
	Republicans	7	31	57	5
	Democrats	15	25	57	3
	Independents	21	32	41	6
						.
	Trend:

	11/18-21/04	13	27	55	5
						.
"Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin of human beings? (1) Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, and God did not directly guide this process. (2) Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, but God guided this process. (3) God created human beings in their present form within the last ten thousand years." Form Y half-sample
						.
		Not Directly Guided By God	Guided By God	God Created Within Last 10,000 Years	Unsure
		%	%	%	%
	ALL adults	15	29	48	8
	Republicans	4	25	65	6
	Democrats	25	27	42	6
	Independents	13	34	43	10

[Sun]

Dims don't realize that free speech is a two-way street.

[ConsentofGoverned]

"Then of course there are literally gigabytes of DNA analyses which clearly establish common ancestry, not to mention scores of other lines of evidence cross-validating the same findings, and so on, and so on... "
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..................
A very good point..the DNA trail would seem to support evolution if you ignore one fact: Nothing in ID refutes common DNA information in living organisms.. as all life was created from basic "clay as metaphor for DNA"..not one piece of data or article you listed has been able to show how a new species appeared ..only point to variants within a species..I do not deny evolution as able to cause in species changes..just that YOU and your side assume too much from the data you present. As you know no record of the development of the something as common as the HUMAN eye can be found. The complex eye just appeared in multiple species with no prior record of how it was evolved..