Defense Lawyers Plan Challenges Over Spy Effort

New York Times ^ | December 28, 2005 | By ERIC LICHTBLAU and JAMES RISEN

[ThePythonicCow]

---

December 28, 2005

Defense Lawyers Plan Challenges Over Spy Efforts

By ERIC LICHTBLAU
and JAMES RISEN

WASHINGTON, Dec. 27 - Defense lawyers in some of the country's biggest terrorism cases say they plan to bring legal challenges to determine whether the National Security Agency used illegal wiretaps against several dozen Muslim men tied to Al Qaeda.

The lawyers said in interviews that they wanted to learn whether the men were monitored by the agency and, if so, whether the government withheld critical information or misled judges and defense lawyers about how and why the men were singled out.

The expected legal challenges, in cases from Florida, Ohio, Oregon and Virginia, add another dimension to the growing controversy over the agency's domestic surveillance program and could jeopardize some of the Bush administration's most important courtroom victories in terror cases, legal analysts say.

The question of whether the N.S.A. program was used in criminal prosecutions and whether it improperly influenced them raises "fascinating and difficult questions," said Carl W. Tobias, a law professor at the University of Richmond who has studied terrorism prosecutions.

"It seems to me that it would be relevant to a person's case," Professor Tobias said. "I would expect the government to say that it is highly sensitive material, but we have legal mechanisms to balance the national security needs with the rights of defendants. I think judges are very conscientious about trying to sort out these issues and balance civil liberties and national security."

[kcvl]

How would anyone trust a DEMOCRAT to EVER protect this country from TERRORISTS after this crap?!!! Maybe the NYT forgot WHY TERRORISTS were able to fly planes into buildings in front of their faces only 8 months after President Bush took office. It couldn't be because Clinton was too busy with "other" matters and let HILLARY handle the country's security and having her 'friend' at the IRS AUDIT her perceived enemies instead! NO, IT COULDN'T BE THAT! /sarcasm

Now these same DEMOCRATS don't want the AMERICAN PEOPLE to see the report proving the CLINTONS NOT ONLY SPIED ON AMERICAN CITIZENS BUT HAD THEM AUDITED!!! WHY NOT?!!!

HELLO, NYT, where is your 'reporting' on this?!

[K-oneTexas]

McCarthy did have it right back in the 1950's. As did some other who went for selective targets. McCarthy may have even succeeded if power and alcohol didn't get the better of him. He might have even beat the liberals and Dem's at their own game, instead he became their battle cry against most conservatives today.

This article is interesting in that we will see if the mechanisms in our legal system do balance the needs of national security against the needs of the rights of defendants. I believe that the methods of gathering must be protected however the persons involved can be examined for their motives and facts about the defendant and his "crime" know before and after the information was obtained are fair game.

This is tough nut to crack because you can never do everything right against terrorism. But you must be over zealous or what you do not want to happen will happen. We saw under the Clinton Administration treating terrorism as criminal activity didn't work.

Why, because the lessons learned were that it takes a vast amount of resources to fight it and that is more turns out to be more than any of the police powers in what ever combination of agencies/departments we put together. Its hit and miss, almost as if its a nebulous cloud shifting locations moment to moment, unlike most criminal activity.

Even more than these physical resources you need massive amounts of intelligence to uncover terrorism, then you have to try to prevent it. Now we are back to the crux of many of these court cases, how can you gather that intelligence if you grant the Terrorists all the same civil liberties of every US Citizen.

This will go to the US Supreme Court and I hope by then we have the right justice making up the full court and the right legal minds to discuss the law and Constitution and not make law and policy.

[samtheman]

The left is still screaming about the "leak" of the name of some office slut who happened to be milking the taxpayers at her CIA "job", but they say nothing about the daily leaks of actual operational secrets. They are traitors. They are working for the enemy.

[Cringing Negativism Network]

Who is the NYT largest advertiser?

Who are the top 5?

Top 50? Is this public information, and legal to "leak"?

[Inyokern]

Believe it or not, I think this is good for our side.

Up to now, the MSM have been portraying this as a story about warrantless searches of US citizens. Now the public will get to see who these searches really targetted.

[frankjr]

Is James "Scaryface" Risen on the payroll of both the New York Times and Al Qaeda?

[gov_bean_ counter]

what can they possibly hope to gain from this?

FWIW, I do not believe it is the wire taps in and of themselves that are causing the Dems and the MSM heartburn. It is programs like Able Danger that can take this data and sift through the degrees of separation that isolate the bad guys from MSM types, Democrats or their supporters. The translation of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi Defense Ministry document most certainly has identified more US and European contacts that can be matrixed into existing open source programs. More Democrat/MSM heartburn.

Couple this with the OFF revelations and you have the makings of a Democrat scandal of epic proportions.

[NYjarcola]

Great point but our side understands already who is being targeted it's the left and their unreachable hatred cluttering anything logical.

[FairOpinion]

"wiretaps against several dozen Muslim men tied to Al Qaeda."


===

Let's protect the rights of the terrorists and the h&^#$ with the lives of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of innocent American citizens. The people in official positions who leaked the information to the press AND the NYT who published it should all be tried for treason.

[kcvl]

NYT's advertisers


Brooks Brothers

E-Trade Financial

Vonage Phone Co.

Dell

Radio Shack

Citibank

Neiman Marcus


just to start

[Mad_Tom_Rackham]

Leave it to the Leftists to continue to undermine our national security. Of course, after the next major attack, these puslianimouus weasels will be carping on the Bush administration with the full volume of their light weights.

[Inyokern]

Great point but our side understands already who is being targeted

I agree that our side already understands it but now it will become more difficult for the MSM to hide the truth from the general public. If I were a Democratic Party strategist, I would not be happy about these Islamic defendants getting publicity. It was better for them when they were just faceless "Americans."

[saleman]

Whoops!!!! You're previous post is gone!! I don't think I did that all by myself. If you're a Conservative then God bless you. And we're not loosing the war of words and thoughts. We have the House, Senate, and the Presidency! So cheer up! Troll.

[Cringing Negativism Network]

kcvl posted:

NYT's advertisers


Brooks Brothers

E-Trade Financial

Vonage Phone Co.

Dell

Radio Shack

Citibank

Neiman Marcus


just to start

-

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/

https://www.etrade.com/global.html

http://www.vonage.com/

http://www.dell.com/

http://www.radioshack.com/

http://www.citibank.com/us/

http://www.neimanmarcus.com/

[MNJohnnie]

Can one of you post your list with live links as a General Chat/Vanity thread. Will get more hits that way. Great work here!

Hey Peach, eeevil and Justa help me spread this around? Need to start hitting the NY Time Advertisers with THOUSANDS of letter.

kcvl posted:

NYT's advertisers


Brooks Brothers

E-Trade Financial

Vonage Phone Co.

Dell

Radio Shack

Citibank

Neiman Marcus


just to start

-

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/

https://www.etrade.com/global.html

http://www.vonage.com/

http://www.dell.com/

http://www.radioshack.com/

http://www.citibank.com/us/

http://www.neimanmarcus.com/



54 posted on 12/27/2005 8:38:24 PM PST by Cringing Negativism Network

[NYjarcola]

So from my obviously angry post at that story you actually think I am a democratic troll, HMMMM guess you are'nt that intelligent after all. Yea, I know we have the house,senate and Presidency but just like me alot of Conservatives are just as angry that it sure doesn't seem like it because of the lack of ever fighting back until recently starting with the Harriet Myers nomination. Go find someone else to target your troll BS with. I am as American and conservative as they come and care deeply about my country and what the scum on the left are doing to it.

[kcvl]

Thanks for your help!

[kcvl]

Thanks!

[Cringing Negativism Network]

You're welcome.

It's so infuriating. It really is.

[Chickenhawk Warmonger]

Thanks for the links. Am firing up letters as we speak. Also don't forget to sign the petition (see tagline for link) calling for an investigation into WHO is doing the leaking. We only have 54 signatures on the petition which doesn't speak very highly of where conservatives stand on this matter...