[antiRepublicrat]

I wonder what the Patriot Act cheerleaders think about this one. They're only looking for terrorists, so we should just accept this, right?

[commonerX]

(0)

[Joe Brower]

This thread has just added to the FreeRepublic "bang list" (firearms interest list) by adding the keyword "banglist".

Any time a firearms-related thread is created on FreeRepublic, please be sure to add the "banglist" keyword to it so that interested FReepers don't miss it.

Let Freedom Ring,

Click the pic to go to the Gun Facts v4.0 download page!

[Joe Brower]

[Dead Corpse]

Oh goody...

BOHICA.

[B Knotts]

The PATRIOT Act needs to be cleaned up. The current bill, as amended, has all kinds of crap in it that has nothing whatsoever to do with protecting us from terrorists.

Also, they are trying to make some of it permanent, which is foolish and shortsighted. Do we want Democrats to have that kind of power to abuse someday?

[Badray]

BTTT

The 2nd Amendment is Homeland Security.

[MNJohnnie]

Just because other people agree with stupidity does not make it any less stupid. Paranoid delusions by the Afraid of their own Shadows Caucus are still paranoid delusions.

[Realism]

It's all for our own good, we're at war you know, with Al Islamma. We need security and by god we're getting it whether we're fully aware of the means or not, preferably not.

In the eyes of the Patriot Act everyone of us is potentially a domestic terrorist and we must be protected not only from the enemy but also from ourselves. In order to do so we will be required to open our private lives and possessions to our protectors giving them the tools they need to do the job.

So in the end we Americans are very good at accomplishing the tasks at hand. So you can bet that by the time we're done we'll likely be.....EUROPE.

[KDD]

bump for later

[untrained skeptic]

Could someone please direct me to the part of H.R. 3199 that they are talking about?

I've found very limited reference to firearms in the bill.

Under SEC. 7. PATRIOT SECTION 215; PROCEDURAL PROTECTIONS FOR COURT ORDERS TO PRODUCE RECORDS AND OTHER ITEMS IN INTELLIGENCE INVESTIGATIONS.

(c) Director Approval for Certain Applications- Section 501(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1861(a)) is amended--

(1) in paragraph (1), by striking `The Director' and inserting `Except as provided in paragraph (3), the Director'; and

(2) by adding at the end the following:

`(3) No application shall be made under this section for an order requiring the production of library circulation records, library patron lists, book sales records, book customer lists, firearms sales records, or medical records containing personally identifiable information without the prior written approval of the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Sounds like adding protections for firearms records, not removing them.

I don't see anything that would allow the government to build a database of firearms ownership.

They may be able to access firearms sales records of people who are agent of foreign nations if they are not US citizens.

Even then they need a warrant or the prior written approval of the director of the FBI.

Even if those criteria are met the decision is subject to oversight.

So where are the provisions that allow for creating a firearms ownership database? What am I missing? Here's the text of the bill for reference.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c109:5:./temp/~c109bXqhhP:e1861:

[VeniVidiVici]

Sorry. The keeping of the 4473s is already defacto registration. And the code that covers this is already big enough to drive a truck through in regards to giving the feds leeway to look at them.

I fail to see what can be gained by opposing this as they already do it.

Want to make it better? Get rid of keeping the 4473s.

[freepatriot32]

Libertarian ping.To be added or removed from my ping list freepmail me or post a message here

[MNJohnnie]

Sorry but being excessivly paranoid about Govt is not real convincing argument. It is exactly your mindset that lead to the Gorelick Wall. Funny how the same people who squeal loudest in the aftermath of 9-11 now want to return us to a 9-10-01 mindset

[Myrddin]

An FFL is required to keep the 4473's on file forever. The BATFE is authorized to inspected and/or collect them anytime it sees fit. Unless the Patriot Act mandates creation of a searchable database of 4473 information, I see nothing different from the status quo.

[freepatriot32]

A New Jersey man accused with using a laser to beam pilots of two planes has been charged under the Patriot Act. The FBI has acknowledged that the incident does not have any relation to terrorism but called David Banach's actions "foolhardy and negligent."

"An analysis of the Justice Department's own list of terrorism prosecutions by The Washington Post shows that 39 people, not 200, as officials have implied, were convicted of crimes related to terrorism or national security."

The Post report said, "Most of the others were convicted of relatively minor crimes such as making false statements and violating immigration law and had nothing to do with terrorism."

Treasury Department figures reviewed by Newsweek show that this year the Feds have used the Patriot Act to conduct searches on 962 suspects, yielding "hits" on 6,397 financial records. Of those, two thirds (4,261) were in money-laundering cases with no terror connection. Among the agencies making requests, Newsweek has learned, were the IRS (which investigates tax fraud), the Postal Service (postal fraud) and the Secret Service counterfeiting). One request came from the Agriculture Department -- a case that apparently involved food stamp fraud.

Earlier this year, the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Missouri filed an action against PayPal for violating the PATRIOT Act (18 U.S.C. 1960), based on PayPal's use in processing funds transfered for online gambling."

There are other troublesome aspects of The Patriot Act. Take, for example, Title III, aimed at money laundering. This became part of the Act at the insistence of Democrats that include Senators Daschle and Kerry. The Justice Department has used it to investigate corruption allegations against a Las Vegas strip club owner!

then there wasthe case that i cant find a link to right now where the department of homeland security raided a mom and pop toy store in oregon and forced them to stop selling copys of knock off rubics cubes after the rubiks company called them even though thier patent ran out in 1995
and for all the friggin bots here that think gun confiscation will never happen in america especially under a republican president dont ever forget new orleans chp officer confiscating guns on camera

[prophetic]

I've always known that these bills can very EASILY get loaded up with a LOT of dangerous crap as with these anti-gun owners crap.

So whilst the 'Civil Right' endearing democrats are using this tiny angle as their claim to shoot down the Patriot Act I personally find that tactic to be so absolutely hypocritical and false; but then again I've come to expect nothing less of thos folks.

The Democraps dont say what they mean nor mean what they say. They are absolutley false, lairs & hypocrites and full of spin (and other 4 letter words I wont use here).

[School of Rational Thought]

Why won't a NICS check reflect suspected terrorist red flags?

It seems that the domestic spying is over the top.

[stevio]

We all think we can trust W, but what about the next one? Because the way the GOP handles the leadership role leaves much to be desired.

[MNJohnnie]

These people in DC are stuck in a 9-10-01 mindset. It is EXACTLY this thinking that gave us the Gorelick Wall. "Oh Golly gee someone some day may do something that may be considered an abuses of this so let us bend over backwards to make sure that 1% error cannot possibly happen." Really amazing to hear Gun Rights advocates using the Gun Control argument. If you accept the logic here, then you also have to accept the logic of people who claim you should never be allowed to own a firearm because golly some day some way someone may abuse their gun ownership so we need to make sure no one owns a gun.

It is this sort of rabidly incoherent, emotionally hysteric, 100%erism that is going to destroy this society. A complete inability to accept that "Gee my view is a minority view and cannot win so I guess I lose." NOW if you don't win you simply abuse the filibuster provision and filibuster anything you do not agree with 100%. THAT is a REAL abuse of power Senators.

So what is next? Gee someone may abuse the Military powers so lets abolish the Military? Gee someone way abuse the Boarder Patrol so abolish the Border Patrol? Gee someone may some day abuse the FBI so abolish the FBI? Just childish inchohenrece from emotional hysteric Afraid of Everything Caucus.