Posted on 11/18/2005 7:58:33 AM PST by Uncledave
Edited on 11/18/2005 6:57:43 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
WASHINGTON -- Because every few years this country, in its infinite tolerance, insists on hearing yet another appeal of the Scopes monkey trial, I feel obliged to point out what would otherwise be superfluous -- that the two greatest scientists in the history of our species were Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein, and they were both religious.
(Excerpt) Read more at townhall.com ...
Tis a pity,
No, it's the Gospels. The primary source for the Gallic Wars is Caesar himself. The Gospels have several sources who clearly did not collaborate or agree on everything.
Which had statues made from life? Caesar.
How about shrouds :-) And why would a statue of Caesar make authenticate his writing?
Which was written at the time, not decades later? Caesar.
The first books of the New Testament were written by eyewitnesses to the events possibly less that two decades after the crucifixion.
Which did not claim miracles, but merely mundane events? Caesar.
Caesar was writing about mundane events, not miracles. Why discount miracles?
>> Which has more contemporary backup in the form of testimonies from numerous others?
> No, it's the Gospels.
Sorry, wrong. Quite a few other individuals wrote of Julius Caesar.
>> Which had statues made from life? Caesar.
> How about shrouds :-)
In that case, none.
> The first books of the New Testament were written by eyewitnesses to the events possibly less that two decades after the crucifixion.
Maybe.
> Why discount miracles?
Consider:
1) "I drove to work today."
2) "I teleported to work today."
Both could be wrong. One could easily be right. Why assume equal validity?
You want me to believe miracles, you're going to have to do better than hearsay and decades-old memories of cult leaders.
> we know Christ exists.
People keep saying that. But then, people keep saying that Allah and Xenu exist, too. Maybe they're right?
There is a significant difference then between Allah and Christ.
But when writing of Caesar's feats in Gaul, they based it on what Caesar claimed.
Further, while nobody argues the existance of Caesar or claims that Commentaries is not valuable history, the Bible is far, far more authenticated. We have thousands of fragments from New Testament dating to early 2nd Century, 50 years after it was written. The oldest copy of Commentaries comes from 900 AD, a thousand years after it was written.
1) "I drove to work today."
2) "I teleported to work today."
Both could be wrong. One could easily be right. Why assume equal validity?
That's the point, you don't. You assume he drove, until you have dozens of witnesses come forth to say he said he was going to teleport to work today, and we were watching him eat his breakfast at 8:59 and then bing, he was gone and his car's still in the driveway. Then dozens of other witnesses come forth and say we were wondering why he hadn't checked in then bing we saw him at his desk at 9 a.m.
It should make you go hmmmm.
> The oldest copy of Commentaries comes from 900 AD, a thousand years after it was written.
I suspect that few people ever thought of the Commentaries as a Holy Relic/Text. Thus, if a copy got too ratty, preserving it would nto be a sacred duty. As well, there was little prosylotizing for J. Caesar, so fewer copies to begin with. Further, his culture/religion *lost.*
On the other hand, statues and coins bearing Caesars image made in life survive in considerable abundance.
>> 1) "I drove to work today."
>> 2) "I teleported to work today."
>> Both could be wrong. One could easily be right. Why assume equal validity?
> That's the point, you don't. You assume he drove, until you have dozens of witnesses come forth to say he said he was going to teleport to work today, and we were watching him eat his breakfast at 8:59 and then bing, he was gone and his car's still in the driveway. Then dozens of other witnesses come forth and say we were wondering why he hadn't checked in then bing we saw him at his desk at 9 a.m.
Exactly so. And since there are no "dozens" of witnesses, certainly no reliable ones to *any* reported miracles, then reports of miracles can be safely and reasonably set aside until such point as those claiming miracles can prove them. There are, after all, contemporary accounts of Muhammad pulling off mircales (splitting the moon in two, frex), and I think most hereabouts would discount such reports... and they'd be right to do so.
> Most serious historians that have researched the subject beleive that Christ was a real man that lived where Christian history said he did.
Yes... but *no* serious historian doubts that Muhammad or Elron Hubbard lived when they were supposed to. Heck, we even have photos, recordings and film of the latter.
> There is a significant difference then between Allah and Christ.
Yes, but is there a significat difference between Allah, Xenu and *Jehovah?* (Apart from the decribed characteristics, of course) I suspect the big difference is you believe in one but not the others.
Maybe. But whatever the reason, the Bible is better authenticated.
And since there are no "dozens" of witnesses,
Sure there are according to the Gospels. And again, unlike Commentaries, the New Testament is compiled from a variety of sources.
certainly no reliable ones to *any* reported miracles, then reports of miracles can be safely and reasonably set aside until such point as those claiming miracles can prove them.
How would you prove a miracle? We have a group of quasi-literate, working class types revolutionizing the world despite active opposition by every earthly power in the world, and without scintilla of expectation of earthly gain, in fact with the expectation of torment and persecution. And most amazingly they were successful. Would you call that a miracle? No.
How about in 1917, 75,000 people gathered to witness a miracle. They witnessed a miracle. Here's the newspaper report Still, people can and do reason it away.
There are, after all, contemporary accounts of Muhammad pulling off mircales
Again a claim of a miracle does not mean a miracle. Muhammad was never the subject of skeptical inquiry. Those who did were killed. Christianity was the subject of skepticism from the get-go. Mocking Christ on the road to Golgatha, putting guards on the tomb etc.
As I originally posted, we have our artifacts, you have your little black book written by men that thought the sun revolved around the earth.
your repeated challenge is really very silly. This is an on-going debate.
hmmm. Name ONE SCIENTIST that says that evolution did not occur. Let the debate begin ...
To say that "evolution did not occur" is so simplistic it's funny. Good bye.
That was ONE SHORT DEBATE! Thank you.
Dear, dear, pathetic prophetic,
You are so blinded by your self-righteous "knowledge" of the Bible and ID, that you seem incapable of reading what Krauthammer actually wrote. His article, while attempting to counter ID as a science, clearly praises God and His divine design of a beautiful and elegantly simple universe. While you might disagree with Mr. Krauthammer's assertions, to jump to the conclusion that he doesn't believe in God makes you sound like a complete zealot and total wack-job. You missed out on The Spanish Inqusition by a few hundred years, my friend.
Then again, "Nobody expects The Spanish Inquisition!" here on FR
So, you are saying that jews can get to the Father without going through the son?
Sorry if you are offended, but my statement remains valid. Unless a jew is a beliver in Jesus Christ, he will never get to heaven through Moses. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the whole jewish community to come home to their messiah.
Agape,
DrMike
Dear Ghost,
No, but it remains true nonetheless. Nothing would make me happier that to see the jewish community at home with their messiah.
The worst thing to consider is their appointment with judgement. In the book of revelation 90% of the jews are destroyed. At the same time 144,000 jewish evangelists will led the world into the Kingdom of Jehovah in the greatest revival of all time.
Why does your God always feel the need to cause misery and death when his creations goof up?
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