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Thoughts On Urban Survival (Post-Collapse Life in Argentina)
Frugal Squirrels ^ | Oct. 20, 2005 | Fernando, an Argentine Architect

Posted on 10/29/2005 10:13:52 AM PDT by Travis McGee

Thoughts On Urban Survival (Post-Collapse Life in Argentina)

My brother visited Argentina a few weeks ago. He’s been living in Spain for a few years now. Within the first week, he go sick, some kind of strong flu, even though climate isn’t that cold and he took care of himself. Without a doubt he got sick because there are lots of new viruses in my country that can’t be found in 1st world countries. The misery and famine lead us to a situation where, even though you have food, shelter and health care, most of others don’t, and therefore they get sick and spread the diseases all over the region.

What got me started on this post is the fact that I actually saw this coming, and posted on the subject here at Frugal’s, months before the new viruses spread over the country and the news started talking about this new, health emergency, which proves that talking, thinking and sharing ideas with like minded people (you guys), does help to see things coming and prepare for them with enough time. So I started thinking about several issues, what I learned (either the hard way or thanks to this forum) after all these years of living in a collapsed country that is trying to get out an economical disaster and everything that comes along with it. Though my English is limited, I hope I’m able to transmit the main ideas and concepts, giving you a better image of what you may have to deal with some day, if the economy collapses in your country. Here is what I have so far:

URBAN OR COUNTRY?

Someone once asked me how did those that live in the country fare. If they were better off than city dwellers. As always there are no simple answers. Wish I could say country good, city bad, but I can’t, because if I have to be completely honest, and I intend to be so, there are some issues that have to be analyzed, especially security. Of course that those that live in the country and have some land and animals were better prepared food-wise. No need to have several acres full of crops. A few fruit trees, some animals, such as chickens, cows and rabbits, and a small orchard was enough to be light years ahead of those in the cities. Chickens, eggs and rabbits would provide the proteins, a cow or two for milk and cheese, some vegetables and fruit plants covered the vegetable diet, and some eggs or a rabbit could be traded for flower to make bread and pasta or sugar and salt.

Of course that there are exceptions, for example, some provinces up north have desert climate, and it almost never rains. It is almost impossible to live of the land, and animals require food and water you have to buy. Those guys had it bad; no wonder the northern provinces suffer the most in my country. Those that live in cities, well they have to manage as they can. Since food prices went up about 200%-300%. People would cut expenses wherever they could so they could buy food. Some ate whatever they could; they hunted birds or ate street dogs and cats, others starved. When it comes to food, cities suck in a crisis. It is usually the lack of food or the impossibility to acquire it that starts the rioting and looting when TSHTF.

When it comes to security things get even more complicated. Forget about shooting those that mean you harm from 300 yards away with your MBR. Leave that notion to armchair commandos and 12 year old kids that pretend to be grown ups on the internet.

Some facts:

1) Those that want to harm you/steal from you don’t come with a pirate flag waving over their heads.

2) Neither do they start shooting at you 200 yards away.

3) They won’t come riding loud bikes or dressed with their orange, convict just escaped from prison jump suits, so that you can identify them the better. Nor do they all wear chains around their necks and leather jackets. If I had a dollar for each time a person that got robbed told me “They looked like NORMAL people, dressed better than we are”, honestly, I would have enough money for a nice gun. There are exceptions, but don’t expect them to dress like in the movies.

4) A man with a wife and two or three kids can’t set up a watch. I don’t care if you are SEAL, SWAT or John Freaking Rambo, no 6th sense is going to tell you that there is a guy pointing a gun at your back when you are trying to fix the water pump that just broke, or carrying a big heavy bag of dried beans you bought that morning.

The best alarm system anyone can have in a farm are dogs. But dogs can get killed and poisoned. A friend of mine had all four dogs poisoned on his farm one night, they all died. After all these years I learned that even though the person that lives out in the country is safer when it comes to small time robberies, that same person is more exposed to extremely violent home robberies. Criminals know that they are isolated and their feeling of invulnerability is boosted. When they assault a country home or farm, they will usually stay there for hours or days torturing the owners. I heard it all: women and children getting raped, people tied to the beds and tortured with electricity, beatings, burned with acetylene torches. Big cities aren’t much safer for the survivalist that decides to stay in the city. He will have to face express kidnappings, robberies, and pretty much risking getting shot for what’s in his pockets or even his clothes.

So, where to go? The concrete jungle is dangerous and so is living away from it all, on your own. The solution is to stay away from the cities but in groups, either by living in a small town-community or sub division, or if you have friends or family that think as you do, form your own small community. Some may think that having neighbors within “shouting” distance means loosing your privacy and freedom, but it’s a price that you have to pay if you want to have someone to help you if you ever need it. To those that believe that they will never need help from anyone because they will always have their rifle at hand, checking the horizon with their scope every five minutes and a first aid kit on their back packs at all times…. Grow up.

Travis McGee Note: This is the beginning of one of the most amazing essays I have read in my life, written by an architect in Argentina, who has lived through an economic and social collapse for the last five years. I consider it one of the most important things that you will read in this or any year. If you're a sheeple, don't bother. But if you see (as I do) storm clouds on America's horizon, do yourself a BIG favor and read it, and pass it to your friends, family, and loved ones.

Thoughts On Urban Survival (Post-Collapse Life in Argentina)



TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: argentina; economiccollapse; emergencyprep; preparedness; shtf; survival; tshtf; y2k
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To: Shanda; Travis McGee

In wisconsin i have an electric well with what must be a ten gallon accumulator. I have a solar panel that could help charge a few deep cycle marine batteries....which thru a DC/AC converter could power the pump intermittently. For large power draws on the battery array, a generator could occasionally be brought into use. Only consern there would be generator noise to give away location....


161 posted on 10/31/2005 8:39:59 PM PST by griffin
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To: Travis McGee
Good essay. Although, even with those smaller communities, it is possible to have a degree of privacy. Just always have to keep in mind that in small communities, you pretty much live in a fishbowl--a two edged sword, no doubt.

Big cities--when the balloons go up, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near them.

162 posted on 10/31/2005 8:44:17 PM PST by Tench_Coxe
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To: Eaker

Just the "mental preparation" provided by reading this article will put you way ahead of the sheeple, if TSHTF. And for one thing, you already have firearms covered, and most sheeple don't.


163 posted on 10/31/2005 8:46:31 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: Tench_Coxe

I think the small cohesive community would be best. Solo, you can be picked off too easily. Big cities, forget it! Small communities means a built in watch system, and people to come to the aid of anyone under attack.


164 posted on 10/31/2005 8:48:51 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: griffin
What do you guy's know that I don't?

Probably nothing, except we might possibly be a little more wary of the direction things seem to be headed.

One of the reasons I now live in a small very small town in the piney woods of east Texas is in part due to the Y2K flap. Since the area is basically the family home "turf", I know or know of most folks around here. It's a quiet little community of farmers, ranchers, loggers and mill workers for the most part. No-nonsense types make up the majority. Wonderful place to live in good times; maybe better if TSHTF.

I don't know if you recall, but sortof concurrent with the Y2K scare was the specter of terrorist activity. If things went south due to the compter bug, would the hate America crowd(foreign and/or domestic) take advantage of the turmoil that may have followed? It was a possibility. BTW, there WERE problems caused by the Y2K bug, but they apparently didn't effect any critical areas, like infrastructure.

I don't know if you've noticed, but most of the rest of the world(fueled by the worldwide media no doubt) doesn't like us very much. There are probably many reasons that could be given by the tin pot dictators and the all-but socialist nations to rationalize their sentiments; none of which makes any difference. They could and would come up with new ones tomorrow if need be.

Civil unrest? The cities are having their problems even now.

Bottom line, there are a lot of clichés that fit the situation as I see it, but the Boy Scout motto says it as good as any, "Be Prepared".

FGS

165 posted on 10/31/2005 10:15:36 PM PST by ForGod'sSake (ABCNNBCBS: An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly.)
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To: ForGod'sSake

I think i remember some 5th column talk...probably could dig up some good threads in th fr archives! :)

Thank you for your thoughts. Since Xlinton's been gone my shields have been lowered quite a bit. :(


166 posted on 10/31/2005 10:28:29 PM PST by griffin
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To: Travis McGee
Travis, you and your ping list might see some connective (t)issues in the following:

Foreign direct investment spillovers, absorptive capacities and human capital development: Evidence from Argentina

{... snip ...}

2. The role of MNEs in global human capital: Why the fuss?

Despite the importance given to MNEs, they do not account for a dominant or even a major share of the world’s economic activity. In terms of employment, the world’s top 100 non-financial MNEs employed 14.3 million of the total 1.8 billion people employed worldwide in 2000, which represented less than 1 per cent of total employment (UNCTAD, 2001). Thus, the contribution to domestic employment from FDI does not seem very impressive, from a quantitative point of view at least.

Despite the relatively small role of MNEs on an aggregate level, the situations differ substantially across countries. MNEs account for less than 10 per cent of manufacturing employment in countries such as Japan, Portugal and Turkey, but this figure rises to well over 40 per cent in countries such as Argentina, Hungary and Ireland. In addition, MNEs tend to have two characteristics that make them stand out. First, MNEs have been found to be concentrated in the more “dynamic” sectors of the economy (Harrison, 1996). Thus, even though they play a relatively small role in most economies in terms of level of total employment, MNEs often play a disproportionately large role in two very different types of industrial sectors. On the one hand, they tend to concentrate their activities in the more competitive or dynamic sectors typified by high growth rates and the use of new and emerging technologies (e.g., electronics, communication equipment, and industrial machinery). On the other, MNEs tend to dominate in mature sectors where economies of scale, branding and advertising determine market share (e.g., petroleum products, chemicals, automobiles, food and beverages and consumer goods). In such sectors, while the technology underlying these industries may be diffused and codified, capital limitations and marketing capabilities have meant that just a few MNEs maintain a large share of the global market. Based on data from Argentina, table 1 illustrates this trend well.

In Argentina, foreign firms have a very strong participation in sectors such as electronics (78 per cent sales and 65 per cent of total employment), communication equipment (49 per cent of sales and 50 per cent of total employment) and machinery and equipment (46 per cent of sales and employment). They also dominate sectors such as petroleum (89 per cent of sales and 79 per cent of employment), chemicals (66 per cent of sales and 57 per cent of employment) and rubber and plastic products (66 per cent of sales and 56 per cent employment).

The second reason why MNE activity has significant policy implications is that the share of MNEs in both types of sectors have been seen to be increasing, largely due to the policies associated with the so-called new economic model (NEM). The increased role of MNEs in certain sectors is in part a result of aggressive liberalization of FDI regimes and privatization programmes. Indeed, the greatest change has been the reduction in state ownership and the subsequent privatization of assets. Between 1988 and 1999, US$107.3 billion worth of privatized firms in the developing countries had been acquired through cross-border mergers and acquisitions (M&A). The share of Latin America and the Caribbean was roughly 79.8 per cent (UNCTAD, 2000). In other words, during this period, about 20 per cent of the total inflows to this region were associated with privatization. During the period 1999-2000 alone, privatizations totalled $19.5 billion (ECLAC, 2001).

{... snip ...}

167 posted on 11/01/2005 12:01:01 AM PST by meadsjn
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To: griffin
Why Mulder, are you thinking our economic collapse is inevitable?

Many reasons. Loss of manufacturing and technological base. Abysmal education system. Debt at all levels. Coming resource wars. There are many others.

I think the federal debt will be the straw that breaks the camels back. They've made too many promises to too many people (primarily social security and medicare) and lack the resources to cover those promises. The debt increased by over $500 billion last year and the federal government has already borrowed $100 billion in the new fiscal year, which in only one month old.

"They" realize the problem and are trying to solve it by inflating the currency. They believe they can simply inflate the debt away by printing more money. (Good luck). I'm not aware of any siutuation where that approach hasn't degenerated into a hyper-inflation.

168 posted on 11/01/2005 4:51:36 AM PST by Mulder (“The spirit of resistance is so valuable, that I wish it to be always kept alive" Thomas Jefferson)
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To: griffin
My GreatGrandPa had running hot and cold water with no electricity. His house won an award from Progressive Farmer magazine in the 1930's as the most modern farm house in America.

His three story house was built below a hill which had a spring. He ran the spring water into a reservoir with enough fall to provide pressure. He ran the hot through the wood cook stove which had a hot water holder. Flush toilets, a telephone system which ran to his relatives house and was battery controlled. A carbide lighting system. Someone stole the huge bathtub out of the now abandoned house a few years ago.

My Father spent a good bit of his boyhood there. There was a sawmill, steam locomotive and always somethig going on. The nearest town of any kind was maybe 15 miles away. It is possible to live well without electricity.

169 posted on 11/01/2005 5:03:16 AM PST by yarddog
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To: griffin
Solar panels sound like a good idea for light electrical use and I don't think a pump would use all that much.

Where my folks live, there is ample water just for the taking.

170 posted on 11/01/2005 5:46:53 AM PST by Shanda
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To: meadsjn

I don't know what to make of that information.


171 posted on 11/01/2005 8:10:34 AM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: Travis McGee
What appeared to be pertinent to the thread, and what it portends for the US, is that Argentina's economic collapse was a direct result of increasing multi-national take-overs of their most dynamic economic sectors and their traditional base industries (agriculture and manufacturing) during the middle and late 1990s.

This is exactly what is happening here with the outsourcing, work visas, and illegal immigrant workers.

172 posted on 11/01/2005 2:05:34 PM PST by meadsjn
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To: meadsjn

Got it. The author of this essay alludes to that in the ag sector, with multinational ag businesses sending food out for export which the Argentines cannot afford.

Shades of the Irish potato starvation, when Ireland was overflowing with food....all for export to England.


173 posted on 11/01/2005 2:26:57 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: Travis McGee; meadsjn
I did a little looking around for items on Argentina in hopes of a better understanding the situation. Amongst others, I ran across, Boom coaxes back immigrants.

You'll note some incongruities within the article, eg., Immigrants pouring into the country once again with 12% unemployment and double digit inflation. What's up with that? Another article alluded to the detrimental(?) influence of unions in Argentina.

Much of it does have a familiar ring...

FGS

174 posted on 11/01/2005 5:13:11 PM PST by ForGod'sSake (ABCNNBCBS: An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly.)
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To: ForGod'sSake

Interesting. I'll shoot that link to the author of the Survival essay at frugalsquirrels, for his comments.

Probably goes to show how desperatedly poor folks are in Bolivia and Peru, that any sign of life in the Argentine economy brings hopeful laborers.


175 posted on 11/01/2005 6:01:49 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: Travis McGee
Probably goes to show how desperatedly poor folks are in Bolivia and Peru...

'Spect so. As one who can barely keep up with the goings on in this country, I had no idea that much of SA was in such dire straits. Just wondering if the graft/corruption we're familiar with in our southern neighbor extends all the way down the southern hemisphere, AND what part it might play? Gad!

176 posted on 11/01/2005 7:41:45 PM PST by ForGod'sSake (ABCNNBCBS: An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly.)
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To: ForGod'sSake

You can go down there and do the "tourist thing," and stay within the affluent bubble around the top 10% of the population, and think the countries are not much different from the USA. But the bottom 50% lives in conditions we can barely imagine.


177 posted on 11/01/2005 9:28:51 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: Travis McGee

I hate to say it, but Argentina appears to be ready for another strong man.


178 posted on 11/02/2005 8:28:01 AM PST by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Take Back The GOP!)
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To: King Prout

Rural communities and even ones on the urban periphery need to have contingency plans for deputizing substantial fractions of the population and for perimeter fortification. Sad it would ever have to come to that, but folks have got to do what they've got to do ....


179 posted on 11/02/2005 8:30:53 AM PST by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Take Back The GOP!)
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To: GOP_1900AD

I don't know if that would be any kind of a solution.


180 posted on 11/02/2005 10:57:58 AM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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