Posted on 10/29/2005 7:25:40 AM PDT by vrwc0915
It appears there is hard evidence to prove that employers are using the H-1B visa program to hire cheap labor; that is, to pay lower wages than the national average for programming jobs.
According to The Bottom of the Pay Scale: Wages for H-1B Computer Programmers F.Y. 2004, a report by Programmers Guild board member John Miano, non-U.S. citizens working in the United States on an H-1B visa are paid significantly less than their American counterparts. How much less? On average, applications for H-1B workers in computer occupations were for wages $13,000 less than Americans in the same occupation and state.
Miano based his report on OES (Occupational Employment Statistics) data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics which estimates wages for the entire country by state and metropolitan area. The reports H-1B wage data came from the U.S. Department of Labors H-1B disclosure Web site.
Miano went out of his way to be balanced, and whenever possible he gave the benefit of the doubt to the employer. For example, he used OES data from 2003 because this is the wage information that would have been available to the employers when filing an LCA (labor condition application).
Miano had some difficulty matching OES job codes with LCA job titles, which employers typically create. Where both the OES and the LCA listed a job as programmer/analyst, Miano took the conservative approach of assuming that the LCA was describing a programmer, a job title that typically earns a lower wage than a systems analyst.
Nonetheless, Mianos report shows that wages paid to H-1B workers in computer programming occupations had a mean salary of $52,312, while the OES mean was $67,700; a difference of $15,388. The report also lists the OES median salary as $65,003, or $12,691 higher than the H-1B median.
When you look at computer job titles by state, California has one of the biggest differentials between OES salaries and H-1B salaries. The average salary for a programmer in California is $73,960, according to the OES. The average salary paid to an H-1B visa worker for the same job is $53,387; a difference of $20,573.
Here are some other interesting national wage comparisons: The mean salary of an H-1B computer scientist is $78,169, versus $90,146 according to the OES. For an H-1B network analyst, the mean salary is $55,358, versus the OES mean salary of $64,799. And for the title system administrator, there was a $17,478 difference in salary between the H-1B mean and the OES mean.
H-1B visa workers were also concentrated at the bottom end of the wage scale, with the majority of H-1B visa workers in the 10-24 percentile range. That means the largest concentration of H-1B workers make less than [the] highest 75 percent of the U.S. wage earners, the report notes.
While it would be difficult to prove that any one particular employer is hiring foreign workers to pay less, the statistics show us that, for whatever reason, this is exactly what is happening on a nationwide basis. Miano says lobbyists will admit that a small number of companies are abusing the H-1B program, but what he has found in this research is that almost everyone is abusing it.
Abuse is by far more common than legitimate use, he says.
First of all lets put things into perspective. Regardless of ones opinion on the merits of the visa program one can not deny that the visa's are in and of themselves a government intervention. After all if it were not for the government granting the visas and setting the quotas there would be no issue hence no whining. So the government is involved like it or not. Also, one can not deny that visa's change the supply and demand ratio. Hence the government is involved with the supply and demand of some professions in this country. To call it whining is interesting use of the term to me.
Regarding the stock prices I submit to you the real culprit is the mega million dollar salaries of the top executives at 95% of the companies. Paying an engineer 100,00 a year to work 60-70 hours a week is not what the problem is or ever was.
No company was forced to pay a java engineer anything. By your own statement saying it is ridiculous to pay someone what the market bears indicates that you favor government intervention to change the market. If so be honest about it - don't submit it falsely as a "shortage" say what it is. It is a way to lower the salaries of engineers in this country by means of government intervention. In actuality it was this whining to the government by the big corporations that resulted in the visas in the first place.
Yes I am arguing for enforcement. The way it is now there is no enforcement so it is abused. If there was better enforcement of the laws and the program was truly used for shortages I do not think anyone would have a problem with the visa program.
No, by itself it is not. One has to complete the sentence: intervention into what?
Actually, form economic perspective, it is the citizenship that constitutes barrier to mobility of labor. The visa program lowers that barrier.
Now, don't read to much into the preceding statement: it is merely a statement of fact and not of my position on this. The citizenship is a barrier for a reason, and should stay that way in principle; exceptions are handled by programs such as H1-B.
Intervention into the supply and demand ratio and therefore the market conditions surrounding the pay scale of certain professions.
Actually, form economic perspective, it is the citizenship that constitutes barrier to mobility of labor. The visa program lowers that barrier.
Citizenship has never been a barrier to mobility of labor. A company is always free to move it's operations to another country and hire whatever labor is desired. It is absolutely ludicrous to say that a company is forced to stay in this country and be bounded by the existing labor pool. If there is a shortage and the workers exist in another country - I say move your operations out of the US. Why does our government need to change this countries immigration laws to satisfy corporations X's labor issues.
They were paid 150k a year because of market demand, or perceived market demand. Either the dipshits that were paying them didn't understand market economics OR the market dictated their value based on limited supply.
Glad to hear that. But we only have your anonymous word on that.
Would you? Judging by how easily you accuse thousands of people, you probably would.
Ready doubts about the credibility of management which is in fact hiring lower paid replacements somehow means that I would do the same as they? That does not follow.
On the other hand, however, You're the one accusing people who want law enforcement...which you now admit ignorance of the lack thereof....of being "whiners," etc.
I further note that you have still not responded to the issue of national defense. How DO you feel about the security implications of hiring Chinese "brainpower"?
Perhaps you would be further interested to know the following:
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Good historical point. Seems like the outsourcing trap has a long and illustrious pedigree. The Romans and the Goths...
The Globalists never square their dreams of world governmental institutions with the facts of history.
Thanks for the ping!
Or one can import ChiCom spies, like the ones just rounded up in LA selling our Aegis navy defense systems.
"H1-B's pay income tax in the U.S"
Do they pay the full tax? Do they pay SS?
You did see this part?
At the most recent IFMA Forecast & Outlook Seminar, Technomic revealed that now, unlike last year, when labor was the issue, the cost of food is the top concern among operators. Seven in 10 operators surveyed said costs are rising significantly. Two-thirds had raised menu prices an average of 4 percent in the last six months, and close to half expected another hike of 3 percent in the next six months. As for manufacturers, Technomic reported that a big part of its sales growth has been a result of price increases. Real sales growth has not been robust. Nearly eight out of 10 manufacturers raised prices to distributors by an average of 6 percent and expect additional increases in the future. In fact, prices have risen so rapidly that some distributors say it is hard to keep up with pricing changes in their systems.
Says who...the politicians invested in understating the problem?
I commend this article for a fair grasp on the situation, at Safehaven.com And no, I'm not a gold bug.
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Citizenship has never been a barrier to mobility of labor. A company is always free to move it's operations to another country and hire whatever labor is desired. It is absolutely ludicrous to say that a company is forced to stay in this country
Movement of a company is movement of capital, not labor.
You also put words in my mouth: I never even addressed whether companies are free to move.
If something in my post is not clear to you, ask instead of assuming a fighting posture and throwing words around, whose meaning you do not understand fully. I am glad to have a discussion but have no interest in contests.
Isn't this what I said? Except for using a derogatory word in reference to market participants. Obviously, you don't know that market participants, in the aggregate, are always smart --- smarter than any other economic institution.
This is patently false to the point of absurd: not only did I not do that but stated that I too want propert enforcement.
Since when responding to every post has become part of my job description?
You may want to cool down a bit.
How DO you feel about the security implications of hiring Chinese "brainpower"?
Badly.
Actually, form economic perspective, it is the citizenship that constitutes barrier to mobility of labor. The visa program lowers that barrier.
You are technically correct - citizenship is a barrier to mobility of labor. My response was addressing the underlying issue that this barrier raises. In my opinion this is a good barrier. If a corporation does not like the labor pool in this country or the labor pool does not meet it's needs then that company is free to move. Why should our government have to change it's immigration policies to satisfy corporation x's labor barriers. Labor barriers that are self induced due to the lack of desire to move out of the USA.
Worth repeating.
My comment above is actually wrong. Citizenship is not a barrier to mobility of labor. People in this country are free to move about. So from a perspective of the citizen there is no such barrier and therefore from a perspective of the government there should be no need to change the immigration laws - H-1B included.
This is my opinion as well.
If a corporation does not like the labor pool in this country or the labor pool does not meet it's needs then that company is free to move.
I completely agree with this statement as it is worded.
The problem addressed by H1-B is not this one, however: it deals with a sort of an intermediate situation, where the company prefers to stay in the U.S. but lacks very few individuals. If a company wants to hire a German manager to reside in the U.S. but direct marketing campaigns in Germany and Switzerland, say. The company likes 10,000 American workers in its plants. What is it to do? Certainly not move the entire company to Germany, right? Whom does it benefit if we don't allow that German manager to come and work in the U.S.? Nobody (and actually increases the costs of goods, for which we all pay). The same situation occurs em masse in major universities. Talent is spread around the world, and universities want the best. If the candidate happens to be Italian, why not hire him/her?
Situations such as this is what H1-B is designed for. The German manager and the Italian professor are allowed to work. YOu never hear about the success of this program, however: all you hear is whining from programmers. It is true that some abuses may exist in that sector (and should be dealt with accordingly) but that does not reflect neither on the objective nor success of the program.
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