.40 vs .45 LAW ENFORCEMENT USE

[bramdawg]

Going onto a local PD in los angeles area. Have heard stories both about .40's and .45's what is really the difference. I know comfort is important put I want to know if I will be safe with a .40 or if I should go with .45. I want the best gun for my job.

[Tarpon]

Not much difference in real world use. The 40 offers a slight capacity advantage. I like the Colt 45 because my hand like it :-).

I carry a Glock 26 9mm because it's small, compact and light. Hitting what you aim at is ultimately more important than caliber.

[archy]

I wonder if anyone ever designed a pistol/magazine which was single-stacked at the top but double-stacked further down?

Yep. The 50-round kp/31 9mm Suomi machinepistol magazine of the 1920s [known as the *coffin mag* to users] was of that configuration, meant to reduce overall length rather than girth as the underlying problem. A 50-rounder sticking out the bottom made for a pretty fair imitation of a monopod, one reason why the Erma, Schmeisser and Lanchester 50-round mags fed from the side...and why the American Thompson design of 1919 went with a 50-round drum. In 1935 the Finns developed their own version of a drum for the kp31 *Tikkakoski reaper* that worked out to a 70/71/72 round capacity with the smaller diameter 9mm cartridges, and these were generally preferred to the coffin mags when available.

The idea was resurrected during the late 1970s JSAAP program development of, among other things a couple of SMG designs,one Navy version of which would have used a shorter *top half* of such a magazine for pistol use and a longer two-into-four column feed arrangement for SMG use. Instead the SEAL community fell in love with the H&K MP5, and that was that.

[archy]

Sig has made a hit out of a necked-down .40S&W, calling it the .357 Sig.

CorBon bullets tried out a necked-down .45, calling it something like the .45/40 CorBon.

Almost. That's the .400 Cor-Bon. One armored transport company I parttimed for allowed the use of .38/.357 revolvers, and added *.40 caliber automatic pistols* when the local P.D. adopted their new S&W .40s, allowing the off-duty cops to carry their duty guns while playing car guard. I picked up a .400 Cor-Bon barrel for my M1911 and dropped it in, caught our boss on one of his good days, and asked if my *.40 caliber pistol* was okay for the job, and he gave the okay. It saved me buying a new handgun, at least, which I later did anyway. [Glock 22]

I don't know if any major manufacturers produced a pistol in that caliber. That, I'd like to see.

It's such an easy drop-in for a M1911 that there's not much needor demand, though I've seen one SIG 220 with a .40 Cor-Bon barrel. Jarvis builds them for the H&K USP, and Bar-Sto has 'em for Glock 21s and M1911s. *info here*

Hoosier Gunsmith Don Campbell has reworked .45 S&W M1917-type pistols into a couple of wildcat variants, including at least one .45 Cor-Bon, though his .45 Whitetail is more common and in Indiana, legal for handgun deer hunters.

I'm gussing it would push a 165gr bullet at about 1,500fps.

Pretty close. Factory ammo from a 5-inch M1911 barrel works out around 1,300 fps for a 165 grain, 1,450 fps with a 135 grain bullet [my pick!] or a 165 grain at 1,300 fps. That's with standard springs and a G.I. ramped barrel; and longer or compensated barrel-length guns can very easily reach the numbers you suggest.

In Indiana, handgun cartridges have to have a 1.16 inch cartridge case length and fire a bullet of .243 or larger to be legal for deer. When I was in Tennessee, I just used a rifle, but it's shotgun or handgun only in the Hoosier State. But there are ways, even legal ones....

[Travis McGee]

Seems like a good idea, close to 10mm without the problems.

[yarddog]

I no longer have a 10mm but I think it just may be the best compromise of power, size, recoil etc., of them all, not that I think there is any magic caliber.

If I knew I was going to be in a life and death fight but didn't know any of the details, I would rather have either a 10mm or a 357 mag revolver, with plenty of reloads or mags. Of course a 12 gauge shotgun or an AR-15 would be even better.

On the other hand, I would probably choose a Browning HP in 9mm as the gun. It is interesting to try to reason out the best gun cartridge etc.

I always thought it interesting that even real pros like Bill Jordan, William Fairbairn and Frank Hamer had different ideas. I once read that Frank Hamer was in over a hundred gunfights and he preferred the .38 super.

[Travis McGee]

In the LONG run, the best gun may just be the one you still have ammo for!

[B4Ranch]

I'm just curious. Where did you shoot him. I know in the head but where? What method did you use to determine where the brain is?

[B4Ranch]

If that cop wasn't a believer before I'll bet he was after. Weak hammer springs aren't a widely known problem.

[yarddog]

I bet it was a Smith & Wesson. I remember when I was a kid, I had a .38 special military and police.

One day I was fooling around with the strain screw and noticed how much better the double action pull was with it backed off a little

Next time I took it out I got regular misfires. I bet the same thing happened to that gun and maybe a lot of cartridges with primers a little harder than standard.

I once bought a few hundred rounds of surplus 9mm ammo. My Nephew and I decided to do a lot of plinking with the cheap stuff. We were shooting a Browning HP and a Beretta model 92, a real early one with the mag release on the bottom left of the grip.

The Browning which had never misfired or jammed, would almost always fail to fire on the first hammer fall but would fire every single time on the second. The Beretta would fire 100% of the time with the first try.

Nothing really wrong with the Browning, just a lot of sub machine gun ammo not really intended for pistols. It did make me like that Beretta tho.

[MileHi]

Ok, I thought about starting a new thread but this one may do.

Tell me about how you all carry your hardware. I wear boots, jeans and t-shirts mostly. Hard to hide major caliber pistols. In the winter with flannel shirts and jackets it is not so much of a problem.

What methods and holsters do you all prefer?

Thanks

[B4Ranch]

Just looking at the numbers I don't think three thousandths would be noticeable to anything but the firing pin in relation to servicability. .003 is about the thickness of a dollar bill.

This is assuming that both cartridges have the same bullet in them with the same protrudence. A sloppy or worn chamber on the 10mm weapon would be one place where there could be a more signifigant forward slippage of the .40 S&W that would be noticed.

yarddog, would you measure some fired cases and post the numbers for us?

[yarddog]

I live way out in the middle of nowhere. When I am just walking around the yard or hiking, I carry a .22 auto in my back pocket. It is a Hungarian copy of the Walther PPK. I like it better because it is more reliable and just as accurate.

When I drive my pickup, there is a Winchester defender pump above my head in a carrier which all but conceals it.

In the car, I keep an old CZ 52 and two spare mags on the seat covered by a cloth. If there are passnegers I sometimes just put it in the glove box.

During the winter while wearing a coat, I keep a Glock model 17 or sometimes a Browning HP in a Galco shoulder holster. During the Summer, I sometimes wear a Domke photo vest. I keep another Hungarian PPK copy in .380 in a pocket with a heavy piece of canvas to break up the outline. I keep two spare mags and around 25 rounds of ammo in a pocket on the other side to balance things. Sometimes I switch the .380 out for a Glock 19 but it is a little heavy.

[B4Ranch]

Why the preference for the 135 grain bullet?

Yes, I'd like the details. LOL

[Squantos]

Warnings posted !

If I'm packing as a civilian with a revolver I'll use a Kramer or Andy Artoonian IWB thumbreak horsehide holster.

If my Glock 21 I'll carry it chamber empty just in cavalry or mex mode.

If a 1911A1, I'll carry in condition one with a Thumbreak IWB from the same holster makers.

In my vehicle I have a rotomolded holster mount from fobus that I modified to hold a custom kydex holster for my 329PD 44 Mag, it's attached to my center console and adjusted so if I shift gears too fast it can be an ND incident.....It has a small black cover made from a black bandana my girl friday made for me to keep prying eyes of taller vehicles or those parked next to me from seeing it. The 44 Mag and a M1A in the slideout in the back of my FJ80 Lancruiser rounds out my truck guns.

An ankle rig w/ a SW317 .22 snub and 50 spare rounds tops off my carry on my person.

[B4Ranch]

"One day I was fooling around with the strain screw and noticed how much better the double action pull was with it backed off a little."

I have done the same and after 50 rounds or so the strain screw would back out further untill finally there would be a misfire. So I bought a couple of used springs from the local gun smith and using a handheld stone, I weakened the spring over a two inch area. After about three tries I finally got it. This was before Loctite. Now I know how to use Loctite and a trigger pull guage. LOL

[yarddog]

I no longer have a 10mm, just some left over ammo and no empty cases. I just went out and fired a .40 out of a Firestar. The fired case measured .421 at the base just in front of the extractor groove. Now here is the strange part. The fired case only measured .419 at the mouth. It actually shrank after being fired.

[B4Ranch]

The .40 S&W measured .421 at the head and .420 at the mouth.

I am going to guess that was because crimping the bullet into the case may have caused a .001 swelling. Huh? Maybe?

[B4Ranch]

Do you reload the 40? How much does that brand of cases lengthen after each firing? How many reloads can you get on one case?

[yarddog]

at one time I was really heavy into reloading. Finally just got tired of spending all the time and sold almost all of it. I kept dies for only 6.5 Swedish Mauser and .308 plus 9mm. I also sold all the bullets cases powder etc. I did keep a few thousand primers and a few lead bullet molds.

I just measured the case length and it is .840 an unfired one measured .841

My guess would be that the bullet expanded the case slightly while loaded. The chamber is obviously tight and when the cartridge fired the case shrunk back to it's original unloaded size or close to it.

[B4Ranch]

history

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/reloads/40_smith_wesson/