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Behe backs off 'mechanisms' [Cross exam in Dover Evolution trial, 19 October]
York Daily Record [Penna] ^ | 19 October 2005 | LAURI LEBO

Posted on 10/19/2005 5:10:52 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

One of intelligent design's leading experts could not identify the driving force behind the concept.

In his writings supporting intelligent design, Michael Behe, a Lehigh University biochemistry professor and author of "Darwin's Black Box," said that "intelligent design theory focuses exclusively on proposed mechanisms of how complex biological structures arose."

But during cross examination Tuesday, when plaintiffs' attorney Eric Rothschild asked Behe to identify those mechanisms, he couldn't.

When pressed, Behe said intelligent design does not propose a step-by-step mechanism, but one can still infer intelligent cause was involved by the "purposeful arrangement of parts."

Behe is the leading expert in the Dover Area School District's defense of its biology curriculum, which requires students to be made aware of intelligent design.

The First Amendment trial in U.S. Middle District Court is the first legal challenge to the inclusion of intelligent design in science class. At issue is whether it belongs in public school along with evolutionary theory.

In his work, "On the Origin of Species," Charles Darwin identified natural selection as the force driving evolutionary change in living organisms.

But Behe argued that natural selection alone cannot account for the complexity of life.

After Behe could not identify intelligent design's mechanism for change, Rothschild asked him if intelligent design then isn't just a negative argument against natural selection.

Behe disagreed, reiterating his statement that intelligent design is the purposeful arrangement of parts.

The bulk of Behe's testimony Monday and Tuesday had been on his concept of "irreducible complexity," the idea that in order for many organisms to evolve at the cellular level, multiple systems would have had to arise simultaneously. In many cases, he said, this is a mathematical impossibility.

He compared intelligent design to the Big Bang theory, in that when it was first proposed, some scientists dismissed it for its potential implications that God triggered the explosion.

He also said he is aware that the Big Bang theory was eventually accepted and has been peer-reviewed in scientific journals, and that intelligent design has been panned as revamped creationism by almost every mainstream scientific organization.

Rothschild asked Behe if he was aware that the National Academy of Sciences and the American Association for the Advancement of Science both oppose its teaching in public school science classes, and even that Behe's colleagues have taken a position against it.

Behe knew of the academies' positions and said they misunderstand and mischaracterize intelligent design.

Behe also said he was aware that Lehigh University's Department of Biology faculty has posted a statement on its Web site that says, "While we respect Prof. Behe's right to express his views, they are his alone and are in no way endorsed by the department. It is our collective position that intelligent design has no basis in science, has not been tested experimentally, and should not be regarded as scientific."

Earlier in the day, Behe had said under direct testimony that a creationist doesn't need any physical evidence to understand life's origins.

So creationism is "vastly 180 degrees different from intelligent design," he said.

Still, Behe said he believes that the intelligent designer is God.

In his article, "A Response to Critics of Darwin's Black Box," Behe wrote that intelligent design is "less plausible to those for whom God's existence is in question and is much less plausible for those who deny God's existence."

After referring to the article, Rothschild asked, "That's a God-friendly theory, Mr. Behe. Isn't it?"

Behe argued he was speaking from a philosophical view, much as Oxford University scientist Richard Dawkins was when he said Darwin's theory made it possible to be "an intellectually fulfilled atheist."

"Arguing from the scientific data only takes you so far," Behe said.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: crevolist; dover
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To: BMCDA
Yes, I know what you meant but fact is a lot of folks will "misunderstand" what you said and claim they are being persecuted because they are no longer allowed to "pray in public" etc.

I've seen this quite often and I'm pretty sure that many of them do it on purpose (cf. "banning" prayer in schools).

Then I appreciate the necessary corrective.

421 posted on 10/20/2005 9:26:52 AM PDT by WildHorseCrash
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To: js1138

Exactly. As long as we have Asians we have nothing to fear. After all, they all believe in evolution and that is the very most important aspect of science. No other discipline really matters if you don't believe in evolution.


422 posted on 10/20/2005 9:27:47 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: microgood
"If you are just saying that irreducibly complex life could have possibly (it is not ruled out) evolved from less complex life, and are not trying to make a case for it, fine, but if you are trying to make a case that it actually happened, then of course you need evidence, which the above is not."

If Behe is truly a scientist should he not be the one looking to falsify his own hypothesis? Is it not part of science to test your own hypotheses?

423 posted on 10/20/2005 9:30:33 AM PDT by b_sharp (Ook, ook, ook....Ook)
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To: js1138

Thanks. A causeless effect is really getting to me, though, and my brain is struggling.

Are there any popularizations out there? Not only was calc a problem for me back in college, now simple computation has become problematic (since a head injury 10 years ago). Thus even a moderately technical approach is probably out of reach. :-(


424 posted on 10/20/2005 9:31:59 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: From many - one.
If those of us in the sciences did not assume as a basic premise that effects have causes, why would we bother looking for how hurricanes form, critters resemble one another, some folk get Parkinson's and others don't...

Is the flu caused by shaking hands with infected people, the close proximity of chicken coops, pig-pens, and houses in China, or failure to get flu shots? If causality is a law of nature, why can there be multiple causes of a thing? Does the boy hit the ball, or is the ball hit by the boy? Do you think the fact that we give distinct scientific names to creatures we find constitutes a natural law that prevents them from mating? Like lions and tigers, or camels and llamas, for example?

You can usually think more analytically about how things happen if you just run the numbers--causality is a useful, but neither infallible, nor indispensable mental convenience, in aid of human decision-making, not a law of nature.

425 posted on 10/20/2005 9:35:01 AM PDT by donh
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To: js1138; mlc9852

There are even more Asians in Asia. We also have Europe, Australia and Israel to count on.

Science will not disappear. It will just relocate.


426 posted on 10/20/2005 9:36:23 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: dmz

There is a tendency among the more extreme elements on either side of the spectrum to see everything in black-and-white, and to refuse to see any possible gray areas. Because this forum is conservative, we get to see the right-wing version; on DU you get to experience the left's version.


427 posted on 10/20/2005 9:36:45 AM PDT by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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To: From many - one.

Who said science would disappear?


428 posted on 10/20/2005 9:39:17 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: mlc9852
You anti-Christians are just gonna have to get over the fact we are a nation built on Christian principals and ideals. Our schools were established by Christians to study the Bible. Research the history of education in this country. Congress can't establish a religion. They haven't. Whether or not you like it, people believe in God as the creator and will continue to believe in spite of your trying to cram evolution down students' throats. And to say that not buying evolution hinders our scientific future in the US is bull crap and you know it.

I guess intelligent debate is at an end.

I presume you and other creationists won't be getting a shot against Avian flu, since the emergence of a virulent strain in humans is entirely an evolutionary prediction, and you don't want evolution crammed down your throats. Good; that will reduce the demand.

Talk about a negatively selective meme though!

429 posted on 10/20/2005 9:39:51 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: Right Wing Professor

These viruses mutate so often I'm not sure how effective a shot would be at this point. But a virus remains a virus.


430 posted on 10/20/2005 9:43:15 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: donh

Defining the question is critical.

Getting the flu may be caused by a number of things. The flu itself is a result of the interaction of the relevant virus and the infectee.

For instance one may be infected (have the virus setting up housekeeping) but not sick (a killer immune system)

Too many effects or too many causes usually mean a carelessly phrased question.

I am attempting to learn about causeless sub-atomic effects, courtesy of another poster, so on another level you may be right. Maybe I should modify my statement to include only the Newtonian world.


431 posted on 10/20/2005 9:47:25 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: mlc9852
But a virus remains a virus.

Not at all. Sometimes it becomes an intrinsic genetic parasite.

432 posted on 10/20/2005 9:48:49 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: mlc9852

Disingenuous.

Re-read my post. I said it would re-locate.


433 posted on 10/20/2005 9:52:55 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: mlc9852
Exactly. As long as we have Asians we have nothing to fear. After all, they all believe in evolution and that is the very most important aspect of science. No other discipline really matters if you don't believe in evolution.

I catch your drip, but anti-evolutionists do not aim their hostility at biology alone. They are anti-science, anti-empiricism. They reject geology, physics, astronomy. They reject the methods and assumptions of science as a whole.

434 posted on 10/20/2005 9:54:21 AM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: connectthedots
"The judge allowed this "pounding" because Forrest kept trying to apply a different standard to motivations of those who support ID than to those who support evolution; and she knew it, but was unwilling to admit it."

It is your opinion "she knew it" and just your conclusion she "was unwilling to admit it".

Here are her arguments:


"THE WITNESS: In Dr. Dembski's case, it is not a matter of his having a scientific viewpoint which can be defended and a philosophical viewpoint attached to that. His viewpoint regarding intelligent design is at its core, in its essence, a religious viewpoint, not a scientific one."

What I object to is his presenting that as a scientific theory that should be offered to students in a science class. I don't think there is any analogy at all between what he is doing and what Eugenia Scott does. And part of my job as a philosopher is to make those distinctionss clear."

"A. My understanding of intelligent design as science is a position that I can defend without having to address the particular scientific claims. Those have been very well addressed by Professor Miller. What I know about intelligent design is that it is defined by its own leaders in religious terms. And any idea that is defined by its own leaders in religious terms as requiring a supernatural creator is not a scientific idea. That's simply basic elementary science."

"THE WITNESS: They're not doing the same thing, sir. Eugenia Scott is not advocating that her personal philosophical preferences be taught to school children in a public school science class as science. She insists that the evolutionary biology that has withstood scientific testing now for 150 years be taught."

435 posted on 10/20/2005 9:55:17 AM PDT by MHalblaub (Tell me in four more years (No, I did not vote for Kerry))
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To: thejokker

evolution = hypothetical
ID = a criticism of that hypothesis


436 posted on 10/20/2005 9:59:24 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: js1138

"They reject geology, physics, astronomy. They reject the methods and assumptions of science as a whole."

You have anything to back up that statement. Are "they" trying to eliminate geology, physics, and astronomy from schools? I haven't heard of it.


437 posted on 10/20/2005 10:15:12 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: Right Wing Professor

For example?


438 posted on 10/20/2005 10:15:50 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: mlc9852

Google 'human endogenous retrovirus'


439 posted on 10/20/2005 10:18:22 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: mlc9852

That's what a literal take on Genesis leads to.


440 posted on 10/20/2005 10:22:10 AM PDT by From many - one.
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