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Evidence of Swimming Dinosaur Found
AP - Science ^ | 2005-10-18 | BOB MOEN

Posted on 10/18/2005 7:19:16 AM PDT by Junior

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To: webstersII
There is no fact of Gravity, the word "fact" only pertains to what we observe in our testing of the hypothesis. If ever there is a test which disproves the current Theory of Gravity, then the theory must be thrown out or modified to include this new information.

So there is a chance that if I drop enough rocks ... one will go up instead of down.... :)

141 posted on 10/18/2005 11:07:16 AM PDT by kjam22
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To: kjam22
I've learned this morning that a true scientist can't be 100% certain that a spaceship can orbit the earth, because the theory can never be "proven".

Still don't get it? The claim, "a spaceship can orbit the earth," is not a scientific theory. It's a specific assertion. Theories must be general, applicable to any and all specific instances within their bounds.

If we make the observation, "here's a spaceship, and it's orbiting the earth," then that is a fact which may well comprise a test of a theory or be explicable by a theory. (Actually this fact would variously implicate a number of theories.)

142 posted on 10/18/2005 11:09:12 AM PDT by Stultis
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
There IS NO *Theory a space ship can orbit the Earth* in science. There never was.

And you know this because?? Because you know every science theory that there ever was first hand? Or because you don't think there was? How can you be so certain to say "there is no". You seem more certain of that than you do that a space ship can circle the earth.

I'm just curious....If a theory hasn't been proved mathematically, but it has been "proved" by test (actually accomplished).... does that mean that the theory isn't proved, or does it mean that we don't understand enough about math to prove it with math?

143 posted on 10/18/2005 11:11:29 AM PDT by kjam22
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To: Stultis
So the comments as posted about out 165 million year old new friend... are those theory, speculation, a good guess, silliness, an opinion, or just fun reading?

Specifically the article says that our friend probably waded into the water to eat fish. Since I've observed first hand animals that wade into the water for a variety of reasons but don't hunt fish in any way.... what credence should I lend to this assertion?

144 posted on 10/18/2005 11:16:06 AM PDT by kjam22
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To: kjam22; Stultis
Specifically the article says that our friend probably waded into the water to eat fish. Since I've observed first hand animals that wade into the water for a variety of reasons but don't hunt fish in any way.... what credence should I lend to this assertion?

There are a couple of points in there, actually. JMO, but the assertion that the animal waded into the water seems quite solid. That it did so in order to catch fish is rather more speculative, as you point out. It's a reasonable hypothesis to explain the behavior of a carnivore entering the water, but it's not at all a certainty.

145 posted on 10/18/2005 11:24:59 AM PDT by Senator Bedfellow
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To: Senator Bedfellow
However, if you and I were to sit down and make a long list of carnivores that go into water but don't hunt fish... well.... we could make a very very long list, don't you think? Even a list that includes birds. I'm not sure it's a good hypothesis.

And I wonder how it's determined that they were swiming "out to sea". Is that 10 meters, 100 yards, 2 miles.... Or is it like my border collie who swims around when it's real hot and then gets out and lays under a shade tree to cool off.

146 posted on 10/18/2005 11:29:23 AM PDT by kjam22
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To: kjam22

In a practical sense, of course, we are really just talking semantics. . . after all, everyone knows what happens when you drop a rock within the atmosphere of planet Earth.

Did you ever see Jim Carey in "Dumb and Dumber"? Remember where he asks the girl if there's a chance for him to get together with her? She says "yeah, like a million to one". He excitedly responds, "So, you're saying there's a chance. I can work with that". Hilarious scene.

In a scientific sense, though, Gravity AS A THEORY is only valid as long as no one proves it wrong, i.e., no one finds the one in a blue million exception to it. So, if you do drop a rock and it goes up, then you have cause for demanding them to discard or amend the theory based on your information.

As for Evolution being a testable hypothesis, well, that has been debated ad nauseum here and there is no point in re-hashing it. The old textbooks from the 60's and 70's used to say that it could never be tested b/c it takes too long to observe. Now the scientists say it can be tested in a lab and verified.


147 posted on 10/18/2005 11:30:02 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: kjam22; Stultis
There IS NO *Theory a space ship can orbit the Earth* in science. There never was.



"And you know this because?? "

Because it's true. Stultis explained it well in post 142:

"The claim, "a spaceship can orbit the earth," is not a scientific theory. It's a specific assertion. Theories must be general, applicable to any and all specific instances within their bounds.

If we make the observation, "here's a spaceship, and it's orbiting the earth," then that is a fact which may well comprise a test of a theory or be explicable by a theory. (Actually this fact would variously implicate a number of theories.)"



"I'm just curious....If a theory hasn't been proved mathematically, but it has been "proved" by test (actually accomplished).... does that mean that the theory isn't proved, or does it mean that we don't understand enough about math to prove it with math?"

It can never be *proved* by test. Theories are not assertions. A scientific theory is more than just *I have a theory that space ships can orbit the Earth*; that's the common usage of the term but not the scientific one. The scientific theory that explains how ships orbit the Earth is Orbital Mechanics, which doesn't just include the specific case of ships orbiting the Earth but ALL orbital bodies. It is a general, universal theory.

We can never be 100% sure we have all the evidence we need to prove a theory in science. That's why all theories in science are tentative and subject to revision. Scientists aren't so arrogant to think they know all there is to know. It doesn't matter how precise the math is describing the phenomena; the uncertainty is in the observations themselves and in the inability to gather all data.
148 posted on 10/18/2005 11:32:21 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
The scientific theory that explains how ships orbit the Earth is Orbital Mechanics, which doesn't just include the specific case of ships orbiting the Earth but ALL orbital bodies. It is a general, universal theory.

So given this level of specific... would you say that the theory / opinion / idea / speculation being advanced by this article is pretty much worthless? Does it basically say we found some foot prints that go into where we think water was 165 million years ago.... and we haven't found anything to tell us what made the prints... but we're still looking?

149 posted on 10/18/2005 11:40:33 AM PDT by kjam22
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To: kjam22

"So given this level of specific... would you say that the theory / opinion / idea / speculation being advanced by this article is pretty much worthless? "

No.

"Does it basically say we found some foot prints that go into where we think water was 165 million years ago.... and we haven't found anything to tell us what made the prints... but we're still looking?"

No.


150 posted on 10/18/2005 11:45:22 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: kjam22

"So given this level of specific... would you say that the theory / opinion / idea / speculation being advanced by this article is pretty much worthless? "

No.

"Does it basically say we found some foot prints that go into where we think water was 165 million years ago.... and we haven't found anything to tell us what made the prints... but we're still looking?"

No.


151 posted on 10/18/2005 11:45:26 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: All
Does it basically say we found some foot prints that go into where we think water was 165 million years ago.... and we haven't found anything to tell us what made the prints... but we're still looking?

I think the problem becomes ... if you're a researcher.... and you release information like this in the way I've stated it.... no one cares. But if you can somehow embellish that a little... then you maybe get to do the speaking circuit deal? Is that a fair guess on my part?

152 posted on 10/18/2005 11:46:04 AM PDT by kjam22
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

Don't know why that double posted, I only hit the button once.


153 posted on 10/18/2005 11:47:01 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

In light of all of the first hand observations you have made yourself.... why would you suspect that this article is anything more that I have suggested it is... (leave out your personal desire for it to be true).


154 posted on 10/18/2005 11:47:26 AM PDT by kjam22
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To: kjam22

"In light of all of the first hand observations you have made yourself.... why would you suspect that this article is anything more that I have suggested it is... (leave out your personal desire for it to be true)."

Because I understood what was written and you didn't. :)


155 posted on 10/18/2005 11:49:34 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Because I understood what was written and you didn't. :)

:) that's a cop out....

156 posted on 10/18/2005 11:50:19 AM PDT by kjam22
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To: Junior

Appears they were up to to their axxes in global warming back then.


157 posted on 10/18/2005 11:51:13 AM PDT by jgorris
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To: jgorris

Or possibly just enjoying a balmy day at the beach...


158 posted on 10/18/2005 11:51:55 AM PDT by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

We see animals ever day.... carnivores that go into water... but don't hunt fish. Don't swim out to sea.... aren't part reptile part giant bird. Would you agree that there is not a shred of evidence beyond the foot prints as to what this new friend really was or what it looked like?


159 posted on 10/18/2005 11:52:00 AM PDT by kjam22
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To: kjam22

":) that's a cop out...."

Nope, it's true. You said,

"...and we haven't found anything to tell us what made the prints..."

That's simply not true. Your statement shows either willful ignorance, an inability to read, or outright deceit. All of the above could very well be it.


160 posted on 10/18/2005 11:54:43 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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