Posted on 10/02/2005 1:59:20 PM PDT by CedarDave
But NObody in this incident died from hypothermia. Not enough time.
And unless you are in an area remote from aid without having used the "buddy system" (in which case you've already broken the first rule), hypothermia is not likely going to be an issue. Although I'm sure I can think of a scenario (foolish rafters on the (very cold) Nantahala River come to mind) it's far less likely than panic drowning.
Cheap shot by the way about the pool, as you no doubt well know. It is against Boy Scout policy to do any underwater instruction in murky (i.e. lake or river) water, and that is a good policy for any swimming instruction. Learning any technique should not be undertaken in anything but optimum visibility, but I've had plenty of opportunities to practice under less than optimum conditions.
I finally got my Lifesaving certificate renewed last year, and I can tell you that the BSA certificate course of instruction makes the Red Cross (my old cert) look like YMCA Minnow class . . .
It's the rafters who TRY to run over kayakers and laugh about it that really aggravate us . . . some raft guides seem to encourage rafters to 'whack the yak', with paddles if possible. Upstream paddler has the right of way of course, but there is the matter of warning and courtesy (if you're standing on end in a hole you can't always instantly get out of the way of a careening raft).
I've been overboard in colorado river rafting. Its actually worse than you describe. For a while, you are actually paralyzed to some extent for a short time. I couldn't even get into the boat without help. But, I didn't panic, and that was the key. Of course, I was wearing a life jacket, but I found myself swimming anyway. I had to stay with the boat.
However, the water in this lake was nowhere near as cold as it was in the river I was in. It was probably in the high 60s in this lake and upper 40s in the river I went into. In addition, relatively, it wasn't that bad, as the temp wasn't in the 90s, but probably the low 70s. I've been in 65 degree water when its like 67 outside, and while the water feels cold initially, you get used to it pretty fast. On the other hand, water that's 75 degrees in 95 degree weather actually FEELS colder and takes a bit longer to get used to.
The year sounds about right. I always remember the day because the 4th is my twin daughters' birthday. (They turn 31 tomorrow - OUCH)!
Wow! I had no idea that this kind of stuff happens. I guess the manners of the past no longer exist anywhere. I can't even exit a store without automatically looking behind me to make sure I'm not letting the door close in someone's face. To think rafters are actually encouraged to make problems for others is pretty depressing.
They're bringing the boat up now. I'm trying to figure out whose property they're in front of. Bob Higgins, former owner of Record Town, had a beautiful place built near there a few years ago. Main house, guest house, and a carriage house, plus the boathouse. I would die for that place:) Charlie Sheen, along with many others, was a frequent guest.
The Buffalohead is about an hour north of me. I haven't been there in about 5 or 6 years. It always had wonderful food when we took the trip up there, but it seems to always be undergoing a change of owners.
I just heard on the Syracuse news that survivors say that they felt a suddent shift of the boat to one side and that their benches were not anchored to the floor and everything slid to one side.
I thought it was just me.
It's not just you and other's who have expressed getting tired about the 'Bush's fault' postings. It's distracting, does nothing to promote people's ideas, thoughts or grumblings about ANY article. It lost its funny along time ago and won't ever make it into the FReeper lexicon in the same way as: hugh, series, Uuungh, beber, stuned, moose, whine, cheese, zot, etc.
Not only that, it's sophomoric and redundant. Everyone who posts to FR fully understands everything will somehow or another end up being Bush's Fault whether it is or not or whether it even has anything to do about any part of our government.
It's boring and it takes up too much of my time to even notice its a post.
/rant
As tragic and horrible as this has been, I expect when I am on a boat to have to maintain my own balance to a certain degree, depending on the size of the boat. And I'm everyone here has had an "oops" moment where shifting their weight has caused a boat to dip suddenly on one side.
They are beginning to tiptoe around the idea that even though the capacity was ok by numbers, perhaps the passenger weight might have contributed.
What a terrible thing to have happen in your front yard . . .
I had thought early on in this thread that a sudden load shift might have had something to do with this accident.
It brought to my mind the capsizing of the Eastland, the "crank ship of the Lakes" back in the teens. It was a poorly designed excursion ship, topheavy and too narrow, and when the passengers all moved to one side to watch a passing vessel, it capsized at the pier on the Chicago River. IIRC, almost 1,000 people drowned, mostly employees on a company picnic. It was a terrible tragedy, like the burning of the General Slocum off Brother Island, but nobody remembers it now.
In a way, I wish FOX TV would go home instead of beating the story to death and bringing in Napolitano to discuss all the litigation that will evolve from this sad event. The boat was inspected in May and it doesn't sound like any laws were broken or regulations bypassed. The owners have operated here for years and outside of occasional boating accidents occurring because of irresponsible behavior on the lake, we never have anything happen like this. I've never been on the smaller cruise boats, but I've enjoyed rides on the Minnehaha, the Mohican, dinner on the Lac du St. Sacrement, and took my first ride on the Ticonderoga (out of service now) when I was 5. The cruises are all very slow and quiet and turns are very wide and safe.
We live in a truly beautiful place, hosting national events like the Motorcade, the Adirondack Balloon Festival, LARAC. We have The Great Escape/Six Flags in the area, as well as many terrific ski areas in the winter. Someone mentioned on this thread that we are a service area. We are that and we do it well, as tourists who have flocked here for over a century will attest.
John Gibson kept asking if there should be an extra crew member on the boat, and while that option could be considered, it is a very small boat.
My prayers are up for those who died and their loved ones, but they are also up for the Captain, who is a complete wreck, and for the owners, who have always run a clean, responsible business.
They managed to get the boat partly up and closer to shore and I believe will wait until tomorrow to haul it up on the trailer. I'm hoping FOX will haul "something" as well.
We already have too many downstaters living here for 2 months of the year and trying to tell us what is best for us. We don't need a national news crew adding to that :)
Correction: I meant to say Americade, not motorcade. I knew it wasn't right, but couldn't think of the name. It is a national event for motorcyclers.
One point, folks. The capacity of the boat has been reported as 50 persons. There were 49 souls aboard. So while she was loaded to capacity, she was presumably not significantly overloaded. I have sailed in boats of this size and type, and as a boater felt perfectly safe.
A former captain of the Ethan Allen was interviewed on the local news. He stated that he was always careful to turn the boat into an oncoming wave or wake. With any boat, catch a big wake broadside and you are in for a rough ride at least.
As a boater, I know that sometimes two or more wakes can interact to produce a much larger wave. The wakes can also interact/reflect from the shoreline to pop up in unexpected places. I was out on my old Venture 21 (small sailboat) on a day with only gentle breezes. There were other boats out, some of them large and fast, but my boat was very stable. Suddenly from out of nowhere three wakes (I think) came together right under the boat! I almost got tossed overboard (yes, I was wearing a life jacket.) If I hadn't had the swing keel down she'd have turned turtle. No warning- the small wakes suddenly joined right under the boat. One in a million chance of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
My guess is that a number of small things went wrong all at the same time to make this happen. Some water in the bilges, a moment's inattention by the captain, wakes converging, passengers too frail to keep from being tossed to the edge of the deck, the weatherproof cabin that kept passengers from escaping. Most likely all these things had to happen together to add up to a tragedy.
My prayers are with the victims and their families.
Good analysis. Thank you.
I agree: That was a sound post from you. I did hear on the news tonight (local) that some of the benches were anchored and some were not. I would think that if the passengers were all seniors that their reflexes would be somewhat diminished and this certainly was a contributing factor. My thoughts and prayers are also with the captain of the boat. The Warren County Sheriff was quoted as saying initial investigation shows no culpability or negligence on the captain's part. He is a retired NYS trooper who is reportedly devastated.
Warrensburg, NY is beautiful country. What puzzles me about the boat overturning in Lake George is that the folks came to look, supposedly, at the autumn foilage. There was no foilage. Everything was green as it has been for the years we did the show. Two weeks from now I think the foilage will show.
Looking at that photo. Makes me think with 50 people on board. Had the same problem as this boat did.
Eastland Disaster Historical Society
http://www.eastlanddisaster.org/
To much weight top side & Too high.
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