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Intelligent designers down on Dover
The York Dispatch ^ | 9/20/2005 | CHRISTINA KAUFFMAN

Posted on 09/22/2005 6:53:07 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor

Theory's largest national supporter won't back district

The Dover Area School District and its board will likely walk into a First Amendment court battle next week without the backing of the nation's largest supporter of intelligent design.

The Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based nonprofit that describes itself as a "nonpartisan policy and research organization," recently issued a policy position against Dover in its upcoming court case.

John West, associate director of Discovery's Center for Science & Culture, calls the Dover policy "misguided" and "likely to be politically divisive and hinder a fair and open discussion of the merits of intelligent design."

Eleven parents filed a federal suit last December, about two months after the school board voted to include a statement about intelligent design in its ninth-grade biology classes.

Intelligent design says living things are so complicated they had to have been created by a higher being, that life is too complex to have developed through evolution as described by biologist Charles Darwin.

The parents, along with Americans United for the Separation of Church and State and the American Civil Liberties Union, said the board had religious motives for putting the policy in place.

The non-jury trial is expected to start in Harrisburg Sept. 26.

No surprise: The school board's attorney, Richard Thompson, said he isn't surprised the Discovery Institute has distanced itself from the school board's stance.

"I think it's a tactical decision they make on their own," said Thompson, top attorney with Michigan-based Thomas More Law Center, a law firm that specializes in cases related to the religious freedom of Christians.

Though the Discovery Institute promotes the teaching of intelligent design, it has been critical of school boards that have implemented intelligent design policies, Thompson said.

Discovery Institute's Web site offers school board members a link to a video titled "How to Teach the Controversy Legally," referring to the organization's opinion that there is a controversy over the validity of the theory of evolution.

The video doesn't specifically mention teaching intelligent design.

But Discovery Institute is the leading organization touting intelligent design research and supporting the scientists and scholars who want to investigate it.

Dover is the only school district that Discovery has publicly spoken out against. West said that's because they mandated the policy. Discovery Institute supports teaching intelligent design, but not requiring it through a school board policy.

He said there are few proponents of intelligent design who support the stand Dover's board has taken because the district has required the reading of a statement that mentions intelligent design and directs students to an intelligent design textbook.

"They really did it on their own and that's unfortunate," West said.

The "bad policy" has given the ACLU a reason to try to "put a gag order" on intelligent design in its entirety, he said.

Discovery also spoke out against Pennsylvania legislators who wanted to give school boards the option of mandating the teaching of intelligent design alongside evolution.

Avoiding politics: Teaching intelligent design is not unconstitutional, but the institute doesn't support the Dover school board's stand because it doesn't want intelligent design to become a political issue, said Casey Luskin, program officer in the Public Policy and Legal Affairs department at the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture.

He said the Discovery Institute is "not trying to hinder their case in court," but the organization wants intelligent design to be debated by the scientific community, not school boards.

Lawyer: Won't hinder case: Thompson said the Discovery Institute's noninvolvement in the trial won't hinder Dover's case because "the judge is going to look at the policy ... not who is in favor of it on the outside."

But the institute has been a hindrance to the school district's attempts to find "scientific" witnesses to testify about intelligent design, Thompson said.

Though Discovery representatives said they have never been in support of Dover's policy, Thompson said the organization's unwillingness to get involved in the trial became evident after it insisted that some of its fellows -- who were lined up to testify -- have their own legal representation, instead of the Thomas More Center, which bills itself as "The Sword and Shield for People of Faith."

Some of the Discovery Institute's intelligent design supporters backed out of testifying, even after Thompson told them they could have their own legal representation if they wanted, Thompson said.

"It was very disappointing" that the institute would prevent its members from testifying, Thompson said.

But he still found some willing Discovery fellows to testify that intelligent design is not a religious movement: Michael Behe from Lehigh University and Scott Minnich from the University of Idaho.

West said Discovery fellow Charles Thaxton is also slated to testify.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; US: Pennsylvania
KEYWORDS: allcrevoallthetime; anothercrevothread; crevolist; crevorepublic; enoughalready; evolution; itsgettingold; makeitstop
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To: PatrickHenry; SeaLion

Not Atkins, just not a fan of pasta. I'll take the cake, though. ;-)


161 posted on 09/22/2005 12:02:07 PM PDT by Vive ut Vivas
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To: shuckmaster
I'll take the day off but, do I go to hell if I don't eat the pizza?

You'll be put on probation.
162 posted on 09/22/2005 12:03:29 PM PDT by Vive ut Vivas
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To: wallcrawlr
Last time I check 2+2=4

2+2=4 is only true within certain algebraic systems.

When evo is that clear...you can have your freedom.

My freedom is not contingent upon your understanding of science.

2/3 of America is waiting.

Argumentum ad numerum is a logical fallacy.

163 posted on 09/22/2005 12:04:06 PM PDT by malakhi
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To: malakhi; harbinger of doom

See! Look at all these loyal followers! Is my divinity on good authority now?


164 posted on 09/22/2005 12:05:41 PM PDT by Vive ut Vivas
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To: malakhi
The words on the page are the words on the page, but how one understands them is a matter of interpretation. You, not untypically, assume that your reading is the only one that is not an interpretation -- and that everyone else's reading is errant.

Are you a professional drummer?

165 posted on 09/22/2005 12:15:24 PM PDT by wallcrawlr (http://www.bionicear.com)
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To: JohnnyM
we can observe gravity in action. We have yet to observe a macro-evolutionary event or creation.

Nor have we observed many things in geology and cosmology. Not all science is done in a lab.

166 posted on 09/22/2005 12:19:57 PM PDT by malakhi
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To: Vive ut Vivas
... I, Vive ut Vivas, am the one true Goddess, and that all other Gods and Flying Spaghetti Monsters are false, would you believe me?

Do you have a stripper factory and beer volcano?

167 posted on 09/22/2005 12:23:13 PM PDT by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: JohnnyM
we can observe gravity in action
Yes, but only micro-gravity. Noone knows what happens when an object falls out of range of our sensors. This is why gravity is a theory in crisis!
168 posted on 09/22/2005 12:35:56 PM PDT by anguish (while science catches up.... mysticism!)
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To: Vive ut Vivas
"If I announced here on FreeRepublic that I, Vive ut Vivas, am the one true Goddess, and that all other Gods and Flying Spaghetti Monsters are false, would you believe me?"

If you placed a picture, on this thread, of yourself changing broccoli into something that actually tasted good and was worth eating I might.

I suspect it would be impossible even for a Goddess to produce.

169 posted on 09/22/2005 12:44:45 PM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: JohnnyM
Scientists somehow say that their view of creation and origins is fact, and not faith,

You're working under the concept that anything that we can't reproduce in a lab or reliably witness in person is somehow unverifiable. This is not the case.

The scientific method allows for this by using hypotheses to predict what we would be able to test for, or witness, if a certain thing were true. For example, how would we know if the Hawaiian Islands were formed by plate tectonics vs. a hot spot in the earths magma that the plate was passing over? It is possible to make predictions on what we would find in these cases, and determine the correct answer, even though we cannot roll a time machine backward and see the Islands form.

Ichneumon has a great post on that subject here. I suggest you read it all thoroughly until you understand it.

You must accept or reject Genesis on faith alone. There is no way to verify the supernatural via science.

But science does give us methods to verify many things about the natural world, and Evolution has been thoroughly verified by many different methods. That's why it's presented as "fact". Because as well as we can determine, that's what it is.

170 posted on 09/22/2005 12:56:13 PM PDT by narby
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To: JohnnyM
"we can observe gravity in action. We have yet to observe a macro-evolutionary event or creation. It is faith that you believe these things occur the way you say they did. Just as I believe by faith that God created them from nothing. Science does not make untested assumptions, except, it seems, for cell to man evolution.

What exactly is a macro-evolutionary event?

171 posted on 09/22/2005 1:29:50 PM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: PatrickHenry; longshadow; Vive ut Vivas
"I filed my application for the position of Consort long before your obscene post. And as for your appendage, I doubt that Her Divinity would even notice it.

It sounds like longshadow isn't really firm in his desire to be the consort of Her Divinity. Noodly appendages aren't really of much use to a Goddess, considering the stiff competition available.

172 posted on 09/22/2005 1:38:08 PM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: Vive ut Vivas; PatrickHenry; longshadow
"And perhaps I can have many Consorts. I'm flexible, I'm a swinger.

It's good to know that even goddesses enjoy a little monkey business.

173 posted on 09/22/2005 1:40:30 PM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: Vive ut Vivas
"No signature needed; just the typical conversion rituals. "

Are you sure you want to watch 3 naked men dance around a large fire? Things could get a wee bit touchy.

174 posted on 09/22/2005 1:44:21 PM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 149 | View Replies]

To: Vive ut Vivas
"I do have one request, however, and that's the giving up of spaghetti. It is not Pleasing To Me.

How about Chicken and Mushroom Fettuccine? That's OK isn't it? Please?

175 posted on 09/22/2005 1:46:03 PM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 152 | View Replies]

To: Vive ut Vivas
"And at my House of Worship, I have the entire TV series on DVD. This is how we do.

Doesn't everybody? Well, mine is on VHS, but same difference.

176 posted on 09/22/2005 1:47:50 PM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger; Right Wing Professor; longshadow; PatrickHenry
("Right Wing Profesor is a toad. All toads are small. Therefore, Right Wing Professor is small" is a logical statement) but entirely erroneous based on the assumptions.

I have a better one for you:

DaveLoneRanger is an idiot. Liberals are idiots. Therefore, DaveLoneRanger is a liberal.

is a logical statement

No, Dave, it is not a "logical statement". It is a logical fallacy. If you had more than an 8th grade education you would understand that.

However, like most ID / creationists, you have to accuse us of being athiests because you cannot compete, even marginally, on an intellectual or educational basis.

We can debate the evolution / creationism issue. Some people can even do it intelligently. But here is something that is an incontrovertible fact. DaveLoneRanger is not the equal of RightWingProfessor by any measure: mental, moral, or physical.

177 posted on 09/22/2005 2:30:48 PM PDT by 2ndreconmarine
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To: 2ndreconmarine

You're much too kind, but alas, I doubt I could have been a marine.


178 posted on 09/22/2005 2:36:36 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: b_sharp
It sounds like longshadow isn't really firm in his desire to be the consort of Her Divinity. Noodly appendages aren't really of much use to a Goddess, considering the stiff competition available.

SWINE!

Impudent scounderel!

How dare you cast aspersions on my Noodliness? It's as al dente as perfection itself!

179 posted on 09/22/2005 2:37:25 PM PDT by longshadow
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To: longshadow
"How dare you cast aspersions on my Noodliness? It's as al dente as perfection itself!

As a test of this 'firmness', could you see if it sticks to the wall? Hmmm?

180 posted on 09/22/2005 3:00:19 PM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 179 | View Replies]


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