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Intelligent designers down on Dover
The York Dispatch ^ | 9/20/2005 | CHRISTINA KAUFFMAN

Posted on 09/22/2005 6:53:07 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor

Theory's largest national supporter won't back district

The Dover Area School District and its board will likely walk into a First Amendment court battle next week without the backing of the nation's largest supporter of intelligent design.

The Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based nonprofit that describes itself as a "nonpartisan policy and research organization," recently issued a policy position against Dover in its upcoming court case.

John West, associate director of Discovery's Center for Science & Culture, calls the Dover policy "misguided" and "likely to be politically divisive and hinder a fair and open discussion of the merits of intelligent design."

Eleven parents filed a federal suit last December, about two months after the school board voted to include a statement about intelligent design in its ninth-grade biology classes.

Intelligent design says living things are so complicated they had to have been created by a higher being, that life is too complex to have developed through evolution as described by biologist Charles Darwin.

The parents, along with Americans United for the Separation of Church and State and the American Civil Liberties Union, said the board had religious motives for putting the policy in place.

The non-jury trial is expected to start in Harrisburg Sept. 26.

No surprise: The school board's attorney, Richard Thompson, said he isn't surprised the Discovery Institute has distanced itself from the school board's stance.

"I think it's a tactical decision they make on their own," said Thompson, top attorney with Michigan-based Thomas More Law Center, a law firm that specializes in cases related to the religious freedom of Christians.

Though the Discovery Institute promotes the teaching of intelligent design, it has been critical of school boards that have implemented intelligent design policies, Thompson said.

Discovery Institute's Web site offers school board members a link to a video titled "How to Teach the Controversy Legally," referring to the organization's opinion that there is a controversy over the validity of the theory of evolution.

The video doesn't specifically mention teaching intelligent design.

But Discovery Institute is the leading organization touting intelligent design research and supporting the scientists and scholars who want to investigate it.

Dover is the only school district that Discovery has publicly spoken out against. West said that's because they mandated the policy. Discovery Institute supports teaching intelligent design, but not requiring it through a school board policy.

He said there are few proponents of intelligent design who support the stand Dover's board has taken because the district has required the reading of a statement that mentions intelligent design and directs students to an intelligent design textbook.

"They really did it on their own and that's unfortunate," West said.

The "bad policy" has given the ACLU a reason to try to "put a gag order" on intelligent design in its entirety, he said.

Discovery also spoke out against Pennsylvania legislators who wanted to give school boards the option of mandating the teaching of intelligent design alongside evolution.

Avoiding politics: Teaching intelligent design is not unconstitutional, but the institute doesn't support the Dover school board's stand because it doesn't want intelligent design to become a political issue, said Casey Luskin, program officer in the Public Policy and Legal Affairs department at the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture.

He said the Discovery Institute is "not trying to hinder their case in court," but the organization wants intelligent design to be debated by the scientific community, not school boards.

Lawyer: Won't hinder case: Thompson said the Discovery Institute's noninvolvement in the trial won't hinder Dover's case because "the judge is going to look at the policy ... not who is in favor of it on the outside."

But the institute has been a hindrance to the school district's attempts to find "scientific" witnesses to testify about intelligent design, Thompson said.

Though Discovery representatives said they have never been in support of Dover's policy, Thompson said the organization's unwillingness to get involved in the trial became evident after it insisted that some of its fellows -- who were lined up to testify -- have their own legal representation, instead of the Thomas More Center, which bills itself as "The Sword and Shield for People of Faith."

Some of the Discovery Institute's intelligent design supporters backed out of testifying, even after Thompson told them they could have their own legal representation if they wanted, Thompson said.

"It was very disappointing" that the institute would prevent its members from testifying, Thompson said.

But he still found some willing Discovery fellows to testify that intelligent design is not a religious movement: Michael Behe from Lehigh University and Scott Minnich from the University of Idaho.

West said Discovery fellow Charles Thaxton is also slated to testify.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; US: Pennsylvania
KEYWORDS: allcrevoallthetime; anothercrevothread; crevolist; crevorepublic; enoughalready; evolution; itsgettingold; makeitstop
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To: Vive ut Vivas
"Observation trumps belief."

So science has observed creation? fancy that

JM
101 posted on 09/22/2005 10:15:01 AM PDT by JohnnyM
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To: wallcrawlr
Last time I check 2+2=4 When evo is that clear...you can have your freedom.

You're going to be waiting a long time for the typical American to understand basic science. And for the more complicated stuff? This is why we have people called scientists. Neat, eh?
102 posted on 09/22/2005 10:15:56 AM PDT by Vive ut Vivas
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To: wallcrawlr
I'm not playing today.

Don't want to talk about reality vs. faith in a book eh?

103 posted on 09/22/2005 10:16:52 AM PDT by narby
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To: Vive ut Vivas
"Your belief that man evolved from a single cell is just feeling, completely outside of observation"

This is fun. Seems we both have a belief system based on faith.

JM
104 posted on 09/22/2005 10:18:07 AM PDT by JohnnyM
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To: JohnnyM
So science has observed creation? fancy that

So the writer of Genesis observed creation? Fancy that.

105 posted on 09/22/2005 10:20:27 AM PDT by narby
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To: Vive ut Vivas

When the time comes for you to choose a consort, I hope you'll remember that I never doubted you.


106 posted on 09/22/2005 10:22:16 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Disclaimer -- this information may be legally false in Kansas.)
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To: JohnnyM
Except that mine is based on obesrvations!

Cool, huh?

P.S. I wouldn't call it a "belief system" any more than I'd call gravity a "belief system".
107 posted on 09/22/2005 10:22:21 AM PDT by Vive ut Vivas
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To: Antonello
So it isn't so much the actual existence of a deity you respect, but rather what other men think of that deity?

If something/someone is trustworthy then it would seem reasonable to trust what they say. As one would continue to look into the claims, that authority would either be validated or invalidated.

To be clear, I'm not referring to the church. I make the authority claim based on the authority Jesus claimed to possess. What He has spoken of regarding man and Himself is reasonable.

BTW, how did arrive at most of what you know? Did you happen to trust the statements of other men initially and then investigate the claims, subsequently affirming or negating what you believed?

I could be wrong but it seems much of what we do know and believe comes by 'standing on the shoulders of giants' (i.e.-trusting what other men say about a certain thing without fully going to the end of it ourselves).

I do enjoy reading these posts. I find them challenging and thought provoking.

108 posted on 09/22/2005 10:23:24 AM PDT by harbinger of doom (I need a crutch.)
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To: Vive ut Vivas
"take the Bible on faith"

Yes we take the Word on faith. We believe, by faith, that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. This is not rocket science. Faith isn't faith if you can prove it. Abraham believed God's Word on faith. Noah believed God's Word on faith. Daniel believed God's on faith, and it was reckoned to them as righteousness. We live by faith, not by sight, so we take it as a compliment when you say as such.

JM
109 posted on 09/22/2005 10:23:38 AM PDT by JohnnyM
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To: Vive ut Vivas

If you don't mind, I going to go ahead and strike you off that list. :)


110 posted on 09/22/2005 10:24:26 AM PDT by harbinger of doom (I need a crutch.)
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To: harbinger of doom; SeaLion; PatrickHenry
If you don't mind, I going to go ahead and strike you off that list. :)

Your loss. My true followers will be rewarded.
111 posted on 09/22/2005 10:26:33 AM PDT by Vive ut Vivas
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To: narby
"So the writer of Genesis observed creation? Fancy that"

I didnt say he did. But I believe it on faith. Scientists somehow say that their view of creation and origins is fact, and not faith, when they have not observed it. I am being honest. The evolutionist is not.

JM
112 posted on 09/22/2005 10:26:41 AM PDT by JohnnyM
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To: Vive ut Vivas
which one of those links observed creation?

JM
113 posted on 09/22/2005 10:27:12 AM PDT by JohnnyM
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To: JohnnyM

I appreciate the admission. Now you know why the Bible isn't science, because science is not faith, it is observed reality. Good, now the Crevo Debates are settled forever and ever amen.


114 posted on 09/22/2005 10:28:29 AM PDT by Vive ut Vivas
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To: JohnnyM
The first one, The Scientific Method, would be an excellent place to start.
115 posted on 09/22/2005 10:30:15 AM PDT by Vive ut Vivas
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To: JohnnyM
Scientists somehow say that their view of creation and origins is fact, and not faith, when they have not observed it.

Do you understand the underlying basis for their conclusions, or are you going by the fallacy that if a phenomena is not 100% understood, it is not understood at all?
116 posted on 09/22/2005 10:32:46 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Right Wing Professor
Intelligent design says living things are so complicated they had to have been created by a higher being,

That's got to be the dumbest most illogical statement of all time! Any time some "higher being" creates something new, it's going to be designed as simplistically as functionally possible. Only evolution can explain unnecessary non functioning complications not being discarded from the design after they're no longer of use.

117 posted on 09/22/2005 10:34:07 AM PDT by shuckmaster
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To: PatrickHenry; Ignatius J Reilly

Might want to check this out

http://www.2flashgames.com/f/f-Flying-Spaghetti-Monster-1939.htm


118 posted on 09/22/2005 10:34:52 AM PDT by Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit (If you want to know the truth, I am lying.)
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To: Vive ut Vivas
so you science hasnt observed it. Good to know. Sounds like faith.

JM
119 posted on 09/22/2005 10:35:28 AM PDT by JohnnyM
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To: shuckmaster
Only evolution can explain unnecessary non functioning complications not being discarded from the design after they're no longer of use.

Unless it was designed that way to throw us off. Which he/she/I may or may not have done.
120 posted on 09/22/2005 10:35:47 AM PDT by Vive ut Vivas
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