Is this you ?
Posted on 08/21/2005 6:02:36 AM PDT by CholeraJoe
"Never, ever leave home without it." No, not your American Express card, your sidearm.
This morning, I woke up about 4:15 and was hungry, so I decided to drive to the local 24-hour beanery. The only other customers were a table of 10, intoxicated 20-somethings making alot of noise.
There were 7 muscular young men and three loud-mouthed young women. After listening to their raucous laughter for 10 minutes, I politely asked the waitress to ask them to hold down the noise. All I wanted to do was eat my breakfast in relative peace.
Her request for quiet lasted about 45 seconds, then the noise and laughter resumed. At that point, I decided to do something.
Bear in mind that I am not an imposing figure. I'm 5'9", mid 50's, and slim. I walked over to the table, and walked completely around it twice. I said, "I'd like y'all to hold down the noise for a while, please." One of the young men started to give me trash-talk but within seconds was elbowed by the guy next to him, who whispered something in his ear. Then everyone at the table said, "Yes, sir, or OK."
What made the difference? Open carry. I was wearing a 9mm semi-auto on my right hip. I never touched it and I made no threats, but it was nevertheless visible.
In some departments that is true, but many cities are not this way: They will bust an off-duty cop for carrying as quickly as anybody else.
Plus, a cop in plain clothes has to be very careful about getting involved in police action whether it is department policy or not. Just a couple of months ago an off duty cop was shot and killed in Houston when he joined a foot chase armed. Another officer mistook him for a suspect.
Louisiana cops have even been known to bust Texas cops in uniform and on duty that cross the state line. Cops aren't super-citizens, and depending on how the law is written in a given locale there may not be a lot of difference between them and non-officers in terms of carrying and deadly force.
I'm surprised this thread got so long. Any reasonable person can see that CholeraJoe is an incident waiting to happen, a powder keg of a bully who should not be carrying a weapon.
Lofty philosophical constitutional arguments aren't needed in this thread. This is just a story about an armed braggart telling us about how he threatened some people who were spending more in the restaurant than he was and not bothering the owner.
If I was the diner owner and I'd seen it, I would have called the cops and reported the gun toter.
Hell, why not just shoot them from your table while you wait for your pie?
...
The error comes from getting up, and approaching the group, and circling them so they could all see his weapon.
I think this is too fine a point to try and make. So long as he didn't make an overt display of his weapon, he isn't brandishing it. Walking around the table should get their attention and give them a chance to volunteer to quiet down.
One point to consider is that if this was a group of drunks, they are already violating the law, possibly several.
Certainly CJ could leave, and that may be the best course of action for his own personal safety. But what happens if the behavior worsens, and the unarmed 25 year old father of four then has to try to calm the drunks for the sake of his children?
While many writers give very good advice about avoiding confrontation and walking away, all that misses a very important reality: If we all just walk away, we will be ruled by belligerent drunks.
It is a sad state of affairs that our legal system would rather go after CJ for not behaving perfectly than confront the evildoers that started the whole mess in the first place.
I once had this sort discussion in the principals office after fighting on the bus. He asked me what he could do to keep me from doing that again.
I told him, "Look, I am not your problem. I don't make a habit of fighting and you probably can't remember the last time I was in your office. You can do whatever you want to me, and it won't make any difference. But this other kid is in your office once a week for causing trouble. And now that I have thrashed him, he will move on to someone else. Where do you think you need to expend your effort?"
Yeah, we can all nitpick every decision CJ made and turn him into the bad guy in a quest to demonstrate our superior knowledge. But I bet the waitresses and other patrons were just glad someone stood up and defused the situation.
If things had gone bad, everything CJ had done and said would have been examined. By doing what he did, he placed himself at great risk, physically, legally, financially.
His mistake was approaching them. If he would have remained seated, I would not be questioning his judgement.
If one or more of that group would have approached him, and then he exposed his weapon, I would not be questioning his judgement.
Again, you may not like it. I may not like it. But in this day and age, you can be arrested and or sued for almost anything. Once that process begins, it is almost impossible to stop. Once he entered the legal process, the questions that he would be asked to answer would be harsher then the ones we on this forum have asked.
But I give up. You guys that see nothing wrong with what CJ did, or do not see any down side, then go ahead and keep doing it.
CJ if you are out there, do us all a favor, the next adventure you have let us know how it turns out. If you survive it, I may let you start picking my lottery numbrers as you are one lucky man.
This is my last word on the subject. Have a good day all.
Agree.....
I have lived in states, Virginia, and Kansas, which allowed open carry at the time. I have no idea what the law is now.
I wish the state of society was such that we could walk around with a gun on our hip and no one would think twice about it. Unfortunately doing that now often causes problems. I never carried one openly for that reason.
I knew a Treasury agent who often "accidentally" would let his coat slide back and reveal the pistol he had concealed when dealing with a jerk. At the time I thought he was being a bit of a cowboy tho I never said anything about it.
Now that I look back on it, maybe there was nothing wrong with what he was doing.
I too remember when anyone could carry a gun on an airplane or kids could take them to school. Maybe those days will return one day but for the time being we have to accept the way people are.
So true. My former office-mate was an ex-NYPD officer. He got shot by another cop when he was off duty because he got involved in a shooting incident at a department store. My friend jumped and disarmed a guy who was brandishing a gun. When the uniformed cops ran in, they saw him standing over the guy he had disarmed and, taking my friend for the attacker, shot him.
What you did was wrong. Period.
Years ago, Jeff Cooper delineated the "Color Code" and the "Principles of Personal Defense" in an effort to provide us with a logical model for one's thinking on the subject of mental preparedness. I'd like now to go to the next step and apply the same logic to the issue of personal appearance and demeanor, as we all agree that, in the domestic defensive environment, avoiding a fight is preferable to winning one.
Layer One: Nonattendance. The best way to handle any potentially injurious encounter is: Don't be there. Arrange to be somewhere else. Don't go to stupid places. Don't associate with stupid people. Don't do stupid things. This is the advice I give to all students of defensive firearms. Winning a gunfight, or any other potentially injurious encounter, is financially and emotionally burdensome. The aftermath will become your full-time job for weeks or months afterward, and you will quickly grow weary of writing checks to lawyer(s). It is, of course, better than being dead or suffering a permanently disfiguring or disabling injury, but the "penalty" for successfully fighting for your life is still formidable.
Crowds of any kind, particularly those with an agenda, such as political rallies, demonstrations, picket lines, etc are good examples of "stupid places." Any crowd with a high collective energy level harbors potential catastrophe. To a lesser degree, bank buildings, hospital emergency rooms, airports, government buildings, and bars (particularly crowded ones) fall into the same category. All should be avoided. When they can't be avoided, we should make it a practice to spend only the minimum time necessary there and then quickly get out.
"A superior gunman is best defined as one who uses his superior judgment in order to keep himself out of situations that would require the use of his superior skills."
Layer Two: Functional invisibility. We all need to practice to art of "being invisible." It is in our best interest to go our way unnoticed, both by potential predators and by the criminal justice system alike.
Whenever I travel, particularly to foreign countries, I endeavor to be the one that no one notices; no one recalls; no one remembers. I silently slip through the radar, leaving no trace, a nameless, faceless tourist. When in any public place, I try to be clean and well groomed, but I never wear bright colors, any kind of jewelry, or anything shiny. I smile a lot, but talk softly and as little as possible. As we say in the law enforcement business, "Courteous to everyone. Friendly to no one."
Loud talking, bright colors, Rolex watches, etc will consistently accumulate unwanted attention. On the other end of the spectrum, tattoos, poor grooming, loud and offensive language, a slovenly appearance, etc will also garner unwelcome notice.
Layer Three: Deselection. Any successful predator has the ability to quickly screen potential victims, focusing in on the ones who look as if they will make good victims and rejecting those who either (1) look too strong for expedient victimization or (2) don't conveniently fall into any particular category.
When invisibility fails, we need endeavor to be consistently deselected for victimization. We do this by making it a habit to appear alert, uninviting, self-confident, and strong. At the same time, we never loiter or appear indecisive. We are always in motion.
"Weakness perceived is weakness exploited!"
Layer Four: Disengagement: Our best interests are not served by any kind of engagement with potential predators. Successful disengagement involves posturing, bearing, verbalizations, and movement. It is in our best interest to disengage at the lowest reasonable force level, but we must simultaneously be prepared to instantly respond to unlawful force with superior force.
Potential predators, as they attempt verbal engagement, should be politely dismissed. Bearing and eye contact should always project strength and confidence. We should continuously be moving off the "line of force." We should be observant in every direction, giving potential predator duos and trios the distinct impression that they will not be able to sneak up on us.
When predators are confused, they are unable to focus sufficiently to carry off their victimization. Therefore, never let a potential predator seize the agenda. Don't answer his questions, and don't stay in any one place very long.
Disengagement, separation, and exit are our immediate goals when we have been selected or are being seriously evaluated by predators. However, if there is to be a fight, the best one is a short one. If a predator menaces me with a gun or a knife, I know that, before it is all over, there is a good chance that I will be shot or cut. However, within that prison of circumstance, I also know that the faster I can end the fight, the less hurt I'm going to get! If there must be a fight, I must explode into action, moving smoothly and quickly, in an effort to confuse and overwhelm my opponent before he has a chance to process all the information I'm throwing at him.
Ultimately, we must "have a plan." Potentially dangerous encounters must be thought about in advance. Decisions must be made. Skills must be practiced. Confusion, hesitation, and vacillation will always attract the attention of predators and simultaneously stimulate predator behavior. -john farnam
Is this you ?
I'm going to have to side with the others who think you were wrong to "brandish" your weapon. It's to be used as a last resort and last resort only. This comes from someone who has been carrying for 10+ years and never had to pull it. Thank God.
yup , LOL!! , and nabes in NYC where the 1st thing you'd see would be the muzzle flash- by Dad Yer Funny
I can back that up with my recent expedition to NyC.
Tough place, its just good to shut up and walk away, let someone else take their place, but as for your story, CJoe, I believe it's a good one, wouldn't go flaunting it, but then again, I am much like you when something like that happens :-D so rock on from the teenage realm.
oops, sorry about the double post :-)
It was all in your mind though. You should have kept your story to yourself. The purpose of a weapon is not to add 100 lbs to your stature (unless you're a LEO). Stories like yours make the gun-grabbers shudder and salivate.
Minor, but important, nitpick. The government does not "allow" us the RKBA. It is a God-given right.
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