Posted on 08/21/2005 6:02:36 AM PDT by CholeraJoe
"Never, ever leave home without it." No, not your American Express card, your sidearm.
This morning, I woke up about 4:15 and was hungry, so I decided to drive to the local 24-hour beanery. The only other customers were a table of 10, intoxicated 20-somethings making alot of noise.
There were 7 muscular young men and three loud-mouthed young women. After listening to their raucous laughter for 10 minutes, I politely asked the waitress to ask them to hold down the noise. All I wanted to do was eat my breakfast in relative peace.
Her request for quiet lasted about 45 seconds, then the noise and laughter resumed. At that point, I decided to do something.
Bear in mind that I am not an imposing figure. I'm 5'9", mid 50's, and slim. I walked over to the table, and walked completely around it twice. I said, "I'd like y'all to hold down the noise for a while, please." One of the young men started to give me trash-talk but within seconds was elbowed by the guy next to him, who whispered something in his ear. Then everyone at the table said, "Yes, sir, or OK."
What made the difference? Open carry. I was wearing a 9mm semi-auto on my right hip. I never touched it and I made no threats, but it was nevertheless visible.
I am surprised by some of the responses here. In New Hampshire, open carry is by right, as it should be, and (I think) concealed carry requires a permit. The logic being that with open carry, everyone knows what's going on.
They are still wearing their "Kill 'em all, Let God sort 'em out" jackets.
Those who know, don't say. Those who say, don't know.
place marker
Could not have said it better.
Minor point here - that's only for handguns - open carry of long guns is legal in Texas.
the above paragraph has got Joe deadnuts.....I'm sure that any lawyer present will agree
At best, that line gives a cop and excuse to hassle Joe. In court, once the absurdity of the fact that line, if not carefully limited to situations amounting to brandishing - or nearly so, would prohibit all open carry is presented, the case would be over.
Exactly. The agressive behavior started at the table full of loudmouths, having been told **twice** to pipe down. They remained aggressive until they knew what the potential outcome of their actions could be. It doesn't get any more simple than this.
My first instinct would have been pretty much as you did Joe, although I'm wondering if those kids might have learned more of a good example from you if you had asked them to come join you over at your table, and tell them you'll buy a round of cups o' coffee so they won't be too woozy when they hit the door and maybe get behind the wheel.
And you might have had a few laughs from those boisterous party girls & guys.
Hey, just a thought.
"What if...", is a valid argument. It allows you to think through all ramification of your action.
We all do it all of the time, if I do this, what is going to happen. It is usually when we do not think of the various "what if" when we get our self in trouble.
All in all CJ got lucky this morning. He did something stupid, and he was not aware of just how stupid it was until he posted it on this forum.
One of the great thing about this forum, is you have a wide and deep cross section of people from different age groups, training, background, and so on. If I ever had a serious problem, I would want advise from this group.
CJ has gotten some good advise this morning. Others, who may one day find themselves in similar condition are also getting good advise.
As a member of the 82nd Airborne you should understand that one purpose of training is for you to learn what to do under certain conditions, when you do not really have time for thinking the “shoulda, coulda or woulda”. I don’t think CJ ever really though about what he would do in this particular situation. Today he was lucky, but some of us are pointing out to him it was more luck then his skills that saved both life both figuratively and literally.
There are so many things that could have gone wrong and at minimum CJ would be facing years of legal problem, or it is possible in this day and age, he could have been killed.
He acted without thinking at a time when it was not required.
I don't agree with the author's attitude. Carrying carries (if you'll forgive the wording) certain responsibilities; one of these is the avoidance of conflict. While this wasn't brandishment, it seems of questionable judgment to me.
mvpel Live Free or Die ping.
Justified or not, killing someone is something you have to live with for the rest of your life, as well as the hatred of the family and friends of the person you killed.
You are the one who created the potential for violence in this situation.
the circling of the table twice with the piece in their faces is not "in a manner calculated to alarm;"
Please! I'm a layman, and I'm sure I could convince a jury to convict Joe......"ca;culated to alarm" is exactly what he did.......the only question is how long did he sit there calculating before he decided to alarm the kids.
It is not "straw man" arguments. CJ and his restaurant companions would be subject to competing reasonableness. It would happen in a court, not in a diner.
Your assertion that CJ has a RIGHT to quiet enjoyment of a meal:
>>CJ merely exercised his right to ask for quiet enjoyment of his meal<<
That is straight up nuts!
If he doesn't like the venue leave. If there is a legal problem in the venue, call the cops, unless you have to intervene before the cops arrive.
There is a basic rule for guns, don't point it at anything you don't intend to shoot. There should be a carry rule that is similar:
Don't display a gun for show, unless the situation may reasonably require it's use.
Anything anything else and you WILL LOSE every thing you own or will own. It WILL destroy your future.
Ask a Lawyer.
DK
You have the nerve to use that analogy, and accuse me of presenting a straw man?
All I (and others) have done is point out that CJ was lucky this morning. Nothing bad happened. However, from his description, and his description only, if the situation would have escalated, he would be at fault.
Now where is the straw man there.
The point is he could ask the manager to quite the other patrons. He could ask them to be quite him self. But, by getting up, crossing over to where they were, circling them twice, making sure they saw his weapon, he was intimating them.
You do not see this, then there is no point in discussing this with you.
It is not the fact that he asked them to be quite. It was the way he did it that is at fault.
CJ posted this on this forum (and I think proudly). I don't think he expected the reaction he has received.
You don't agree, fine, that does not change the fact that CJ used poor judgement and if it had gone bad, he would be in serious trouble this morning, and that is the subject of the discussion.
You have no business displaying a sidearm during a request that someone be a little quieter. Guns are for self-defense, not for intimidation. You intimidated.
Frankly, if I were in law enforcement in your jurisdiction, I'd jerk your open-carry permit for this. You have no business with guns. You can't be trusted with them.
Aggressive? Loud and raucous laughter is aggression now? This thread is really getting silly. I'm all for good manners, but nobody has a "right" not to be offended - whether by loud conversations in the diner or by Indian mascots for the football team. If you don't like the restaurant, don't patronize it, for crying out loud...
There are certainly times when showing your weapon is a good way to avoid crimes (I've done it myself) but this was, emphatically, not one of them.
Of course, it would have been good to know whether or not the "seven muscular drunks" and their debutante dates were themselves armed.
So, next time you're a-hankering for some breakfast at 4:30AM, send out a patrol first, mark the location with a white phosophorus rocket, call in some 105, pin down the kitchen staff with SAW and outflank their main body with the rest of your squad.
So you want home fries or grits with that?
Joe, never eat breakfast again without checking with your superiors. I also notice you are overdue for your annual fitness evaluation.
Holy Crap! You just made me spray milk out of my nose. Best comment I've seen in a long time. You sir win the Intarweb! :P
I'm glad some people still know how to use sarcasm properly.
He never said he was "taking on" adversaries..... And your assumption that I have no combat training would be a definite disadvantage to you sir....
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