Posted on 08/20/2005 10:52:05 PM PDT by joanie-f
Well, thanks. It is an entirely non-truthful argument, however, by those who rely upon it.
As in, "the white man" WAS "here first" (in both North and South America) along with Northern Asians and Australian Aborigines. To repeat: end of story.
As to what "white men," those archaeological facts are still being written, given the ongoing exploration as to Norse populations in North America (proven but not entirely all excavated or even yet identified).
As to the Australian Aborigines being "first" in South America, already established as fact.
As to the "white man" DNA in first human populations in North America (and throughout North America later, up to and excluding the Hopi and southward), there was a tribe of peoples who populated what is now Japan, PRIOR to the Central Asians who later arrived there who became today's Japanese. THOSE earliest peoples in those now-Japanese Islands were NORTHERN EUROPEAN and they interbred with Northen Asians and migrated to North America during and after that process.
Thus, all the so-called "indiginous" peoples of now North America have the white man as their ancestor. The "indiginous" Alaskans/area peoples arrived LATER, just to be clear.
However, ALL the "tribes" in North America (excluding the Hopi and southward) are descendants of those FIRST MIGRATING "white" people intermingled with Northern Asians (who are also mixed-Northern European, to strengthen the pot, so to speak).
It's established scientific fact. There was a SECOND migration into North America by predominantly Central Asians (became the Inuit and 'eskimo') and some think perhaps continued on to Central and South America.
However, Central and South America long after the Australian Aborigines were there was peopled by Central Asians. Only later, far, far later, arrived the Spanish with language and DNA. And, at least far after the white man had long been in North America.
As tot
Is there a short story version of the Hopi? That/they seem to be the dividing line of sorts.
I was feeling weary and overwhelmed so took a nap. A car pulled up outside, and what do I hear, "Viva la Mexico", and "Hasta la vista", I think. Man, I hope it isn't somebody coming to see me. The car drove off and there was a knock at the door. It was the person I mentioned in an earlier post, and we had a nice visit, tried to keep it low key (she is into Christianity as an answer to all her problems in a big way, and I try to be supportive as best I can). So I took her and got her something to eat, not much in the house at the moment because it's been hot and I don't feel much like cooking or eating, took her to her apartment to gather up her things, then took her to her sister's where she is to stay for the four days she is under house arrest. Heh heh. Not laughing at her, myself. I swear I was going mad and might be having auditory hallucinations.
On another note, I was sitting at my computer minding my own business yesterday when a nice big white newer car pulled up (don't know what kind it was, kind of one of those newer SUV-type things that sticks out at the back, and two guys were out talking, "no, get them higher." I looked out and saw two guys (my ethncity) stealing my apples and carrying off half a grocery bag full, they are green yet, and it pi$$ed (uh oh had to edit that as I originally wrote it) me off because they hadn't the decency to ask. If people ask politely, I usually generously comply so long as they dont climb the darn tree like I catch the kids doing because guess who will get sued if one of the aging branches breaks off and somebody gets hurt?
So in a very little way, I know how those property owners feel along our southern border, but I didn't need that incident to drive it home, and yes, I'm royally ticked off that some illegals bet the ranch and got it, at least part of it.
I'm drained and don't know if I can keep my thoughts straight enough to write anything more that is anything approaching coherent tonight.
My world has gone mad!
"And even if your wall worked for the 2,000 mile Mexican border, it would have no impact whatsoever on the entry of the majority of illegals."
Starting to give up your contention that a wall won't work on the Mexican border, bayourod?
bttt
"If we were to station guards at each station so that each worked an 8-hour shift, five days a week – and hired a sufficient number of guards so as to have a guard on duty 24 hour a day, seven days a week -- we would require 21 eight-hour shifts (totaling 168 hours) per week with each guard working a 40 hour week. Therefore we would require 4.2 guards per station."
OK, so nobody working on this job can ever take vacation or get sick, because there is no reserve of manpower. Additionally, there are places on the border where you can't see what's going on fifty feet away, let alone half a mile.
Finally, if more than a very few illegal aliens DO get over, under, or around the wall in one area, the guards can't do anything about them, because there is absolutely no reserve of manpower available.
Also, you make no allowance for supervisory personnel, or for administrative overhead. Typically, you want a low-level supervisor for every 10-15 people, and a similar ratio of higher-up supervisors at each level.
"Assume that each guard is paid an annual salary and benefits totaling $75,000."
Nice assumption--but not true. The federal government costs out a civil servant at an average of $150K, which does not include any mission equipment (such as weapons, vehicles, or radios).
Finally, you have, at great expense, closed 2,000 miles of border.
That only leaves 17,000 miles unguarded.
DNA (mitochondrail DNA, which can only be associated with maternal lineage) was sampled over time and from skeletons capable of being evaluated, from across North America peoples, and over time.
And compared to mitochondrial DNA in Northern Europe, Northern Asia and elsewhere.
Longer story shorter is that all peoples among all "native americans" in North America shared mitochondrial DNA with Northern European and Northern Asian peoples (this is a vast oversimplification of the process, but the process that was done is scientifically reliable, and does define lineage), all in North America shared DNA with Northern European and Northern Asian, WHILE the ONLY people in North America who did not but who instead possess lineage shared with Southern and Central Asians are the Hopi.
The Hopi "tribe," therefore, are people who migrated almost certainly from South/Central America into southwestern North America, while all the rest (including the Seminoles in Southeastern North America) migrated from the North, originally from Northern Europe and Northern Asia.
Whether the Hopi have remained in their current location is another issue, since there's now evidence that proves the ongoing "wars" and brutalities, even, in our Southwest by peoples fighting out territories and resources in the southwest and central americas, with one another (however, those peoples all share DNA and do not share DNA with the northern groups, and were, thus, almost certainly limited by opposing interests to their "farthest northern" inhabitations of the Hopi in the southwest).
Yeah.. and its working.. currently by Dubyas hand.. no doubt the Hildebeast will do the same when and if she becomes Prez..
I don't like it, I don't like it a bit.. It seems Dubya has turned on "us".. if he was ever with "US" to begin with.. he is either complicit or stupid.. and I don't think he's stupid..
lots to read, but I'll bump for later, hoping it's interesting
Simplistically, here is a layman’s partial solution – a very rough and ‘non-expert’ draft which would, of course require significant ‘fine tuning’ …
Of course, all of the above are simply the estimates of a layperson, who has no expert knowledge in the costs of the physical items involved. But I believe those estimates to be not unrealistic. Neither do I suggest that I have covered all financial considerations that would be involved.
And you brought up the need for administrative expenses, etc. How big do you think those figures would be compared to the major ones she has covered (the wall, the stations, the guards, their training and equipment, etc.)?
You also say that she has only covered 2,000 miles of our borders "at great expense" and not the remaining 17,000. That was not her purpose (the remaining 17,000). First things first. And anyway she showed that her proposal was subject to tuning, but still only involved 15% of the annual cost of supporting the illegal immigrants here already. Don't you suppose the northern and sea borders could be taken care of with the remaining 85%?
Just a rhetorical question. I'm sure the answer would be just as critical as your first reply.
Walls and fences don’t stop people determined to cross. (Israel Allows people to cross at gates therefore they don’t need to climb the fence) The Berlin Wall didn’t stop anyone, it was the guards every 50 yards with machine guns who stopped people who would otherwise have just climbed over. But if a ratio 0f 32 guards per mile weren’t enough at Operation Gate Keeper, your 9 guards per mile certainly won’t be effective.
Since 9/11 the DHS has been developing a “Virtual” fence to aid in securing the border against terrorists and smugglers. They have spent about $5 Billion on high tech surveillance. I posted an article on it yesterday and Tom DeLasys has been mentioning it this week.
The virtual fence includes sensory equipment mounted on blimps that are tethered, satellites, Unmanned Aerial Vehicles, manned fixed wing and rotary winged aircraft, towers, and even underground.
If a guard sees a truck crossing the border about a mile away all he can do is radio in the location and direction of the truck.
But consider the possibilities of a virtual fence. A satellite potentially can spot the truck ten miles before it gets to the border, read the license plate, cross reference it to known smugglers, farmers or government agencies, compare the depth of it’s tracks to known tare weights to determine the payload it’s carrying, and redirect an UAV if considered necessary.
The sensors might be able to detect radiation, explosives, drugs or other materials. Any individuals getting out of the truck could be individually tracked.
Border guards in land vehicles or helicopters could then be guided to intercept the truck or passengers if it fell outside certain parameters.
This is the future for securing our borders, not brick and mortar fences, but the anti-illegals will not be happy with it and they will continue to say that President Bush is a traitor for not protecting us from terrorists…….
People will try to tell you Operation Gatekeeper did not work. Try Googling "Operation Gatekeeper" and you will find a bunch of OBL's screaming because it worked so well, illegals can no longer cross there and no must go through the desert. You will first find a site that shows how many illegals it stopped then a bunch of sites screaming because "Operation Gatekeeper" is killing illegals trying to cross in the desert. It not only worked, it worked too well.
Little fences may not work, but walls most certainly do.
A little bit of imitating whirling dervishes?
The industries most dependent upon ILLEGAL immigrant, government-subsidized "cheap" labor did about $800 billion. I bet is the truth. They were before the millions and millions came and they will be there after the millions and millions go home. I bet.
I will defer to others however with an explanation and some hint of a source.
According to BEA 2003 Gross Output by Industry in Current Dollars (total = $19,732.8 billion)
agriculture (farms) was $223.8 Billion
Accommodation and food services $549.1 Billion
Total = $772.9 Billion
Note:
construction was $954.8B but there was no break out for residential, etc.
Other services, except government was $472.2B but there was no break out, etc.
Perhaps we can arrange an exchange with Mexico. We'll send them all our 30+, minivan driving, feminazi battleaxe soccer moms, and they can send us all their 18-22 year old attractive spanish girls.
The only restriction would be there would be no returns or exchanges allowed.
In two generations, Mexico would cease to exist as a nation.
"And you brought up the need for administrative expenses, etc. How big do you think those figures would be compared to the major ones she has covered (the wall, the stations, the guards, their training and equipment, etc.)?"
Based on what I've seen in the federal government, a lot. She low-balled her manpower requirements by a very large margin, and then low-balled the cost per man by 50%. She also low-balled the construction costs (Israel did not have to pay Davis-Bacon "prevailing wage" rates). The wall is likely to cost about 10 times the amount she estimated to build and maintain.
"You also say that she has only covered 2,000 miles of our borders "at great expense" and not the remaining 17,000."
Exactly.
"That was not her purpose (the remaining 17,000)."
Considering that, honestly, the illegal aliens and their smugglers are far more likely to be intelligent, creative, and clever than the people who low-ball construction and manpower costs to get their pet ideas to work, she'd BETTER get the other 17,000 miles under control.
"First things first."
Something half begun is not done.
"And anyway she showed that her proposal was subject to tuning, but still only involved 15% of the annual cost of supporting the illegal immigrants here already."
After low-balling her estimates by a generous margin. And when the illegals still get in rather easily by going around or under her undermanned wall, we'd still get stuck with the welfare costs as well.
"Don't you suppose the northern and sea borders could be taken care of with the remaining 85%?"
No. First, most Americans will not support building a wall all the way around this country. (People who live near the coast would LIKE to go to the beach every now and then.) Second, the cost for full coverage is likely to be astronomically high. Third, we'd have to restart the draft, and draft both sexes. (We'd have to draft the men to man the far-more-than-four-per-mile posts on 19,000 miles of wall; and then we'd have to draft the women to whelp the next generation of border guards. Unauthorized inferitility will become a court-martial offense.)
"People will try to tell you Operation Gatekeeper did not work. Try Googling "Operation Gatekeeper" and you will find a bunch of OBL's screaming because it worked so well, illegals can no longer cross there and no must go through the desert."
Not very many people ever die in the desert, and there hasn't been an increase in the number of deaths.
The illegals were crossing where I live (rural San Diego) long before Gatekeeper, and they'll continue crossing long after. It's because they can hop on the Sunset Route freights (formerly Southern Pacific, now Union Pacific) and get past the border patrols easily.
I don't suppose you actually read that or expected anyone to read the article posted on your home page did you? And where does it say it was not a success? The above was posted from your article. It said there were many allegations of falsification of numbers which in conclusion, the Attorney General decided were not true.
I must go to bed but I'm anxiously awaiting your answer. Not just more rhetoric but perhaps some true posts from the article you have posted on your home page that I cannot find in any way says a wall does not work.
It may be something akin to JR's attitude(at least the last time it was expressed to me). That is, it was not a critical issue; there were many other issues more important....at the time at least. I couldn't understand JR's apathy concerning illegals then, and I still wouldn't understand it today if he still holds those views. Maybe Jim will give an update.
In any case, "W" has let this problem get out ahead of him. He should have known better, but his apparent lack of interest in a non-critical issue will reach critical mass in the near future....with or without his attention. If he's a bright guy, and I think he is, he'll get on top of illegal immigration. If he doesn't offer something constructive pretty soon I think Pubbies may suffer some damage in '06. Hope I'm wrong about that....sortof.
FGS
Thank you.
Perhaps you would have a little more compassion for the people that are dying in the desert trying to cross after you read this.
229 of these people are listed and the fiscal year is not even over yet. This goes from November to November and it's only thru July.
The borders must be closed for their sake as well as ours.
http://www.derechoshumanosaz.net/deaths.php4
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