Posted on 08/11/2005 8:28:30 AM PDT by SirLinksalot
Nelson brings intelligent design debate to Australia
August 10, 2005 - 7:47PM
Education Minister Brendan Nelson supports the teaching of a controversial new theory of creationism, but only if it is balanced by the instruction of established science.
President George Bush has started a debate in the United States over the teaching of evolution in school by suggesting a theory known as "intelligent design" should be taught in the classroom.
It proposes that life is too complex to have developed through evolution, and an unseen power must have had a hand.
Dr Nelson said he had met the proponents of intelligent design, in addition to watching a DVD on the subject.
"Do I think it should be a replacement for teaching the origins of mankind in a scientific sense? I most certainly don't think that it should be," he told the National Press Club in Canberra.
"In fact I would be quite concerned if it were to replace it.
"Do I think that parents in schools should have the opportunity if they wish to for students also to be exposed to this and be taught about it? Yes. I think that's fine."
Intelligent design differs from biblical creationism in that it is not tied to a literal interpretation of the biblical book of Genesis.
Nevertheless, intelligent design points to the role of a creator, and it has become increasingly influential in Christian circles.
AAP
If someone bases their entire argument on the necessity of a through z to make the simplest possible functioninng device, and it is demonstrated that a-m is a functional unit, and o-z are functional units, then the argument as a whole falls apart.
Here's a clue: there is no such thing as irreducible complexity. Everything that has ever been claimed to be irreducible, is in fact comprised of simpler functional parts.
Irreducible is not just a moving target. It is a fantasy. It is not just that the 40 unit thingie can be reduced to 33 parts. It is much worse than that. The forty parts can be broken into other less complex things that serve less complex functions, but are nevertheless useful.
Irreducible complexity is not a new idea. The entire concept in its modern form was published 200 years ago. It was the inspiration for Darwin to do his research. Origin of Species was his response. there is nothing in Behe's argument that wasn't published 200 years ago and which hasn't been the foil, so to speak, behind most biological research.
I thought I was a genius, although I had trouble explaining the concept to the few friends I had who would listen. OK, even my friends wouldn't listen. When I got to college I found out I had invented my first previously invented wheel.
This particular category of anecdote is so overrun with fraud that I will accept nothing that isn't verified by a double-blind investigation.I had a college friend who was crippled by polio as a child. He had a steel rod in his spine and couldn't keep a watch running. Even the best ones got magnetized. I wonder if these NDE people are wearing any electronic devices.
But that's microcraterism. Not macrocraterism (which is a theory not a fact).
only if you can show ATTAGC turning into ATTAGCC,produces something the organism never had before.
not only is "irreducible complexity" a spurious notion, its use to bolster the fantasy of the necessity of "Intelligent Design" is absolutely laughable: Irreducible SIMPLICITY is the holy grail of all engineering.
Irreducible simplicity is what ID proponents mean, but then they were never particularly thoughtful.
Anyway, you don't get to irreducible simplicity by design. You get to it by Muntzing.
http://www.national.com/rap/Story/0,1562,17,00.html
People who have seizures have electrical events observable by non-invasive procedures so it is not too surprising if some types of sensitive electric powered apparatus like a watch may be affected
Note also the comments below,reprised from my posts 120 and 121. It appears that the NDE or OBE may reduce the incidence of this watch phenomenon:
121...
"...All my life, I could never wear watches on my arms because within the span of >from two days to two weeks, they would stop..."
So even before the OBE (or NDE) she couldn't wear watches. Hmm-m.
120...
"...Morse says 4% of normal adults and 2% of out-of-body experiencers claim they make watches stop...."
That seems to mean that an out of body experience helps watches to work! More normal folk have problems than OBEr's
js1138 said: The people who have near death experiences are not having death experiences. Do you really think God is so stupid He doesn't know when someone is really dying?
Your anecdotes can be matched by any number of drug induced hallucinations, and are routinely reported in cases of oxygen deprivation.
Howdy there js1138;
God is the one that sent them back into their bodies.
Here's a little more info on the watches from International Association for Near-Death Studies, Inc
Aftereffects of Near-death States
Around eighty percent of the people who experienced near-death states claimed that their lives were forever changed by what happened to them. On closer examination, though, a pattern of surprising dimensions emerged.
Experiencers were not returning with just a renewed zest for life and a more spiritual outlook. They were evidencing specific psychological and physiological differences on a scale never before faced by them. And this was true with child experiencers, as well as with teenagers and adults.
Various researchers have attempted to profile these changes over the years. Even without the necessary funding to do clinical studies, most feel that enough research has been done to justify acknowledging the aftereffects pattern and making information about it available.
Knowing what is typical for experiencers should help to alleviate any worry or confusion not only for the individual involved—but for family and friends, as well as health-care professionals and the community at-large.
The pattern of aftereffects from near-death states can best be understood if considered under the separate headings of major characteristics of psychological and physiological changes. Details and explanations follow:
Major Characteristics of Psychological Changes
Loss of the fear of death, more spiritual and less religious, easily engage in abstract thinking, more philosophical, can go through various bouts with depression, more generous and charitable than before, form expansive concepts of love while at the same time challenged to initiate and maintain satisfying relationships, "inner child" or unresolved issues from childhood tend to surface, less competitive, convinced of a life purpose, rejection of previous limitations in life and "normal" role-playing, heightened sensations of taste-touch-texture-smell, increased intuitive/psychic abilities plus the ability to know or "re-live" the future, charismatic, a child-like sense of wonder and joy, less stressed, more detached and objective, can continue to dissociate or "separate" from the body, easily absorbed ("merge into" whatever is focused on), hunger for knowledge and learning, highly curious.
Near-death experiencers come to love and accept others without the usual attachments and conditions society expects. They perceive themselves as equally and fully loving of each and all, openly generous, excited about the potential and wonder of each person they see.
Their desire is to be a conduit of universal love. Confused family members tend to regard this sudden switch in behavior as oddly threatening, as if their loved one had become aloof, unresponsive, even uncaring and unloving. Some mistake this "unconditional" way of expressing joy and affection (heart-centered rather than person-centered) as flirtatious disloyalty. Divorce can result.
One of the reasons life seems so different afterward is because the experiencer now has a basis of comparison unknown before. Familiar codes of conduct can lose relevance or disappear altogether as new interests take priority. Such a shift in reference points can lead to a childlike naivete.
With the fading of previous norms and standards, basic caution and discernment can also fade. It is not unusual to hear of near-death experiencers being cheated, lied to, or involved in unpleasant mishaps and accidents. Once they are able to begin integrating what happened to them, discernment usually returns.
Most experiencers develop a sense of timelessness. They tend to "flow" with the natural shift of light and dark, and display a more heightened awareness of the present moment and the importance of being "in the now." Making future preparations can seem irrelevant to them.
This behavior is often labeled "spaciness" by others, who do their best to ignore the change in perception, although seldom do they ignore the shift in speech. That's because many experiencers refer to their episode as if it were a type of "divider" separating their "former" life from the present one.
There's no denying that experiencers become quite intuitive afterward. Psychic displays can be commonplace, such as: out-of-body episodes, manifestation of "beings" met in near-death state, "remembering" the future, finishing another's sentence, "hearing" plants and animals "speak."
This behavior is not only worrisome to relatives and friends, it can become frightening to them. A person's religious beliefs do not alter or prevent this amplification of faculties and stimuli. Yet, experiencers willing to learn how to control and refine these abilities, consider them beneficial.
Life paradoxes begin to take on a sense of purpose and meaning, as forgiveness tends to replace former needs to criticize and condemn. Hard driving achievers and materialists can transform into easy-going philosophers; but, by the same token, those more relaxed or uncommitted before can become energetic "movers and shakers," determined to make a difference in the world.
Personality reversals seem to depend more on what's "needed" to round out the individual's inner growth than on any uniform outcome. Although initially bewildered, families can be so impressed by what they witness that they, too, change-making the experience a "shared event."
The average near-death experiencer comes to regard him or herself as "an immortal soul currently resident within a material form so lessons can be learned while sojourning in the earthplane." They now know they are not their body; many go on to embrace the theory of reincarnation. Eventually, the present life, the present body, becomes important and special again.
What was once foreign becomes familiar, what was once familiar becomes foreign. Although the world is the same, the experiencer isn't. Hence, they tend to experiment with novel ways to communicate, even using abstract and grandiose terms to express themselves.
With patience and effort on everyone's part, communication can improve and life can resume some degree of routine. But, the experiencer seems ever to respond to a "tune" no one else can hear (this can continue lifelong).
Major Characteristics of Physiological Changes
Altered thought-processing (switch from sequential/ selective thinking to clustered thinking: thoughts bunch together/ideas pop up), comfortable with ambiguity, heightened intelligence, more creative and inventive, unusual sensitivity to light and sound, substantially more or less energy (even energy surges in body, ofttimes more sexual), reversal of body clock, lower blood pressure, accelerated metabolic and substance absorption rates (decreased tolerance of pharmaceuticals and chemically treated products), often turn to alternative healthcare treatments, electrical sensitivity, synesthesia (multiple sensing), increased allergies or sensitivities, can possess ability to heal, a preference for more vegetables and grains (less of meat), physically younger looking (before and after photos can differ).
Sensitivity to light and sound can be a serious issue and may necessitate some lifestyle changes. While most experiencers learn to limit sunshine exposure, others can't get enough. Almost everyone, though, has similar difficulties with loud or discordant sounds.
Many can no longer tolerate "hard" rock music. The vast majority prefer classical, melodic, and/or natural sounds, and become passionate about using music to heal.
Energy surges up and down the body happen to many, and can be accompanied by "lights" in the air. Researchers usually regard this as the release of "kundalini" (a Sanskrit term meaning "coiled energy at the base of the spine"). Supposedly, kundalini energy and spiritual energy are one in the same, yet the theory behind this idea remains unproven.
To keep in formed about ongoing research, contact Kundalini Research Network, c/o Dale Pond, R#5, Flesherton, Ontario, NOC IEO Canada.
***Electrical sensitivity refers to a condition whereby the forcefield or energy around an individual affects nearby electrical equipment and technological devices. Usually sporadic in effect and impact, some experiencers have noticed: watches can stop, microphones "squeal," tape recorders quit, television channels change with no one at controls, light bulbs pop, telephone "drops off," computers suddenly lose memory, and so forth. ****
Experiencers more at ease with their new traits report fewer of these incidents than those still in the process of making adjustments.
Physical differences, along with attitudinal changes, eventually lead experiencers to alter their approach to health and healing, employment, finances, lifestyle and relationship issues.
Many say that it's almost as if they have to relearn how to use their own body and brain. Once adjustments are made, the majority come to live healthy, productive lives that are happier, more spiritually-oriented and energetic than before.
To deny or repress the aftereffects seems to leave individuals feeling somehow "incomplete," and can foster unwanted "breakthroughs" years later.
Aftereffects cannot be faked. Nor can you hide your response to the way they affect you (whether you realize what you are doing or not).
You may be able to delay their onset or lessen the impact they have, but you cannot pretend away the complex and life-altering potential they bring.
Irrespective of any drama brought on by near-death states, what happens afterward is where true value and real meaning are established.
Helpful Notes
It is possible to have near-death-like experiences without the threat of impending physical death. Children, for instance, can have death dreams that are unusually powerful. Adults can emerge unscathed from mishap, or find themselves slipping into a different meditative state, only to discover later on "they have changed." If a genuine case, the individual will exhibit the same pattern of aftereffects as a near-death experiencer.
Adjusting to the aftereffects takes time. The first three years tend to be the most confusing, almost as if the individual isn't "fully back." Experiencers and their families are urged to attend or start a local IANDS group, and to read the following books for indepth research studies about aftereffects.
Helpful Books
Atwater, P. M. H., Lh.D. Coming Back to Life.
Atwater, P. M. H., Lh.D. Beyond the Light, The Mysteries and Revelations of Near-Death Experiences.
Atwater, P. M. H., Lh.D. Children of the New Millennium.
Atwater, P. M. H., L.H.D. (2003). The New Children and Near-Death Experiences. Rochester, Vermont: Bear & Company.
Morse, Melvin, M.D. Transformed By The Light. (Ivy Books paperback).
Ring, Kenneth, Ph.D. Heading Toward Omega.
Ring, Kenneth, Ph.D. Lessons from the Light.
Sutherland, Cherie, Ph.D. Reborn In The Light. (Bantam Books paperback).
http://iands.org/aftereffects.html
I don't care how many quacks you cite. It's still BS, and there's a good buck to be made preying on people's fear of death.
Very interesting. I don't know of an NDE but I've never been able to wear a watch that works for more than a few days so I just don't wear one. I recall that I once had a cheap battery watch that worked for a couple months but others and any windup I've ever had were worthless in a day or two. My mom got to where she would give a different kind of watch every Christmas and would get peeved because they never lasted until New Years. I even bought an expensive pocket watch once. Worked fine when I left the store but was stopped when I got home and never worked again. I finally gave up. Wall clocks and my dash clock work just fine but put one on my arm or in my pocket and it's a goner.
Well, VR, for what's it's worth, I think this is a valuable insight, that you were really onto something. I am especially intrigued by your insight regarding time. The account, however, seems to leave a couple of things at loose ends. For instance, (1) what is the possibility that one ever knows enough to give a complete description of "where everything was at a given moment?" and (2) how did the laws of the universe come about?
I'm really not trying to be a smartass here, VR. it's just these are the questions that come to mind, that's all. And I do agree with you, that if one could "completely understand one slice of time," one would "know it all" -- meaning all of time, I gather.
As to how the hypothesis could be experimentally tested, I wouldn't have a clue. But to me, that doesn't necessarily mean that there's no truth to the insight.
Thank you so very much for writing, VadeRetro!
well... I dunno about YOU, but *I* get to irreducible simplicity through design (and trial and error, and redesign, and observing the sometimes happy result of accidental developments, and stealing ideas from others, and...)
but then, I design fairly simple machinery, and only as a hobby now.
Still, even reinventing the Schrödinger equation is pretty good for a beginner. :-)
shuckmaster said: Very interesting. I don't know of an NDE but I've never been able to wear a watch that works for more than a few days so I just don't wear one. I recall that I once had a cheap battery watch that worked for a couple months but others and any windup I've ever had were worthless in a day or two. My mom got to where she would give a different kind of watch every Christmas and would get peeved because they never lasted until New Years. I even bought an expensive pocket watch once. Worked fine when I left the store but was stopped when I got home and never worked again. I finally gave up. Wall clocks and my dash clock work just fine but put one on my arm or in my pocket and it's a goner.
Howdy there shuckmaster;
Very, very interesting. So is it possible you may have had a serious childhood illness, or accident that you don't remember?
Howdy again Gumlegs;
Since I don't know your age, I don't know if you were around when family members took care of their dying loved one's at home, instead of sending them to the hospital or hospice.
The old-timers would always tell about Mom (or whoever)being on her deathbed talking with a dead loved one and even being surprised that Aunt Sally (or whoever) was with the dead loved one. When the family was unaware of that other person dying.
Mom would be talking and reaching her arms up...ready to go home.
I think it's very possible that nowdays most folks are drugged up when their Doctors know they're at the verge of dying and that's why we don't hear many stories today.
And I sure don't believe what the New Agers believe.
There is a Heaven and a Hell...it's up to each one of us to decide where we want to live forever.
The Resurrection Body
35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?”
36 What a foolish question! When you put a seed into the ground, it doesn’t grow into a plant unless it dies first.
37 And what you put in the ground is not the plant that will grow, but only a dry little seed of wheat or whatever it is you are planting.
38 Then God gives it a new body—just the kind he wants it to have. A different kind of plant grows from each kind of seed.
39 And just as there are different kinds of seeds and plants, so also there are different kinds of flesh—whether of humans, animals, birds, or fish.
40 There are bodies in the heavens, and there are bodies on earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the beauty of the earthly bodies.
41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their beauty and brightness.
42 It is the same way for the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies, which die and decay, will be different when they are resurrected, for they will never die.
43 Our bodies now disappoint us, but when they are raised, they will be full of glory. They are weak now, but when they are raised, they will be full of power.
44 They are natural human bodies now, but when they are raised, they will be spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, so also there are spiritual bodies.
45 The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person. But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit.
46 What came first was the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later.
47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven.
48 Every human being has an earthly body just like Adam’s, but our heavenly bodies will be just like Christ’s.
49 Just as we are now like Adam, the man of the earth, so we will someday be like Christ, the man from heaven.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These perishable bodies of ours are not able to live forever.
51 But let me tell you a wonderful secret God has revealed to us. Not all of us will die, but we will all be transformed.
52 It will happen in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, the Christians who have died will be raised with transformed bodies. And then we who are living will be transformed so that we will never die.
53 For our perishable earthly bodies must be transformed into heavenly bodies that will never die.
54 When this happens—when our perishable earthly bodies have been transformed into heavenly bodies that will never die—then at last the Scriptures will come true:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?
56 For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power.
57 How we thank God, who gives us victory over sin and death through Jesus Christ our Lord!
God’s Anger at Sin
Romans 1
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves.
19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.
20 From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.
21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead.
23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people, or birds and animals and snakes.
24 So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies.
25 Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen.
26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.
27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.
28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.
29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.
30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents.
31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving.
32 They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.
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