Intelligent Design Now Comes to Australia ( Issue is Going International)

One thing I'd like to see included is the fact that much biological research is conducted in places like China, India, Israel, the European countries, Japan...not hampered by Creationism.

Also, much medical research is buttressed by evolutionary theory.

"...Biology can be taught with out the art work and allll of the maybe, if, perhaps, could have, etc..... "

Wrong.
No science can be taught without the "Maybe, if, perhaps, could have, etc..."

Anyone who thinks it can doesn't understand at all what science is about.

And what about the one's that come back with physical proof of a problem they never had before? Isn't that worth some research and investigation?

There was no "come back" if there was no departure.
There is no "physical proof" of anything you claim.
And no scientist wants to waste his time researching tales from Fantasyland.

But I think I see your problem:

Obviously someone told you about it. Did you learn it in school?

Thankfully Dimensio, I went to school at a time when the teacher had the 10 Commandments posted right behind her on the wall, they were a gentle reminder "not to steal...not to lie...not to kill"

We did have a hour long Bible study once a week, but sadly that didn't take with me, and I went most of my life being a athesist.

It wasn't until a friend loved me enough to give me a Bible, and I took the time to read it...that I became a Christian.

It was just God...His Words...and me, that changed my life around.

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
it is unknown.

that still provides no reason why it should be assumed to go on indefinitely especially with dogmatism.

not to mention these changes in DNA have yet to be demonstrated to add information to the genome. As opposed to tuning up/down existing information. (the loss of armor in the stickle back)

Howdy there balrog666;

I'll just let you read a little from a medical doctor.

Cardiologist Maurice Rawlings recounts the startling near death experience of a patient taking a cardio stress test on a treadmill. In his book titled, "To Hell and Back".

The patient became breathlessness and began to sweat profusely. The monitor showed a dangerous rapid heartbeat. This was followed by a long pause in the beat and then by a flatline. Charlie's heart had stopped, his eyes rolled up in his head and he fell.

One of the nurses breathed "the kiss of life into Charlie's lungs." Another nurse started the IV but the heart would not beat properly. A temporary pacemaker was needed. Whenever Dr. Rawlings stopped pushing Charlie's chest to adjust the pacemaker, his heart would stop. Charlie's eyes would roll up and he would turn blue.

This time when Charlie's heart re-started he was screaming the words, "I'm in hell! I'm in hell!" Hallucinations, Dr. Rawlings thought. Most victims scream, "Take your big hands off me, you're breaking my ribs."

But Charlie was saying the opposite: "Don't stop! Don't stop. Every time you let go I'm back in hell!"

When conscious, Charlie begged the Doctor to pray for him. Dr. Rawlings said, "I felt downright insulted. In fact, I told him to shut up. I said I was a doctor, not a minister and not a psychiatrist. The nurses looked at me as if to say, 'Do something!'

So I composed this make-believe prayer to keep Charlie off my back. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, keep me out of hell. If I live, I'm on the hook. I'm yours.' Say it Charlie!"

Charlie said the prayer and then a very strange thing happened that changed both the Doctor's and Charlie's lives. Dr. Rawlings said, "A religious conversion experience took place. I had never witnessed one before. Charlie was no longer the wild-eyed, screaming, combative lunatic who had been fighting me for his life. He was relaxed and calm and cooperative.

It frightened me. I was shaken by the events. Not only had that make-believe prayer saved Charlie McKaig, but it got me too. It was a conviction that to this day I cannot explain. Since then, Charlie has outlived three permanent pacemakers. It's difficult to believe that my simple prayer opened the road to both Charlie's and my own salvation."

Dr. Maurice Rawlings was a specialist in cardiovascular diseases at the Diagnostic Center and area hospitals of Chattanooga. He served in both the Army and the Navy and became chief of cardiology at the 97th General Hospital in Frankfurt, Germany. He was the personal physician at the Pentagon for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, which included Generals Marshall, Bradley, Patton, and Dwight Eisenhower. In civilian life Dr. Rawlings was appointed to the National Teaching Faculty of the American Heart Association, specializing in teaching methods for the retrieval of patients from sudden death.

I shared that story with you to start you thinking about the issues of life and death and where people go after they Die. In his book Dr. Rawlins gives several accounts of people he resuscitated who claimed they had a glimpse of hell. Remember, Jesus came to seek and to save us from our lost condition. The Bible tells us that there is a Heaven to win and a Hell to shun.

"Touched by His Noodly Appendage" placemarker.

However, the dominant theory of evolution today is neo-Darwinism, which contends that evolution is driven by natural selection acting on random mutations, an unpredictable and purposeless process that "has no discernable direction or goal, including survival of a species." (NABT Statement on Teaching Evolution). It is this specific claim made by neo-Darwinism that intelligent design theory directly challenges.

You cite DI, and then you wrote, quote:

"In other words, they accept that evolution happens (more or less) but they're mystics."

LOL, PH! On the other hand, those who disagree that a random process can give rise to purposeful structures/organisms might be inclined to say that it is the neo-Darwinists who are the "mystics" here. Ot at least they seem to believe in magic. They don't have a clue what life is; yet they insist it is a spontaneous effect of matter in its motions. Doesn't seem very reasonable to me.... FWIW

There is no "physical proof" of anything you claim.

And you know there isn't because?

And no scientist wants to waste his time researching tales from Fantasyland.

How do they know it would be a waste of time? We have millions of eye witness accounts.

Saved From Hell Rev. Howard Storm's near-death experience

Before his near-death experience, Rev. Howard Storm, a Professor of Art at Northern Kentucky University, was not a very pleasant man.

He was an avowed atheist and was hostile to every form of religion and those who practiced it. He often would use rage to control everyone around him and he didn’t find joy in anything. Anything that wasn’t seen, touched, or felt, he had no faith in.

He knew with certainty that the material world was the full extent of everything that was. He considered all belief systems associated with religion to be fantasies for people to deceive themselves with. Beyond what science said, there was nothing else.

On June 1, 1985, at the age of 38, Howard Storm had a near-death experience due to a perforation of the stomach and his life was forever changed.

His near-death experience is one of the most profound, if not the most profound, afterlife experience I have ever documented. His life was so immensely changed after his near-death experience that he resigned as a professor and devoted his time to attending the United Theological Seminary to become a United Church of Christ minister.

The following is the account of Pastor Howard Storm's near-death experience, which is an excerpt from his book, My Descent Into Death,.

An Invitation to Hell From Strange Beings

[Howard Storm was in intense agony and dying.]

Struggling to say goodbye to my wife, I wrestled with my emotions. Telling her that I loved her very much was as much of a goodbye as I could utter because of my emotional distress.

Sort of relaxing and closing my eyes, I waited for the end. This was it, I felt. This was the big nothing, the big blackout, the one you never wake up from, the end of existence. I had absolute certainty that there was nothing beyond this life – because that was how really smart people understood it.

While I was undergoing this stress, prayer or anything like that never occurred to me. I never once thought about it. If I mentioned God’s name at all it was only as a profanity.

For a time there was a sense of being unconscious or asleep. I’m not sure how long it lasted, but I felt really strange, and I opened my eyes. To my surprise I was standing up next to the bed, and I was looking at my body laying in the bed.

My first reaction was, "This is crazy! I can’t be standing here looking down at myself. That’s not possible."

This wasn't what I expected, this wasn't right. Why was I still alive? I wanted oblivion. Yet I was looking at a thing that was my body, and it just didn't have that much meaning to me.

Now knowing what was happening, I became upset. I started yelling and screaming at my wife, and she just sat there like a stone. She didn’t look at me, she didn’t move – and I kept screaming profanities to get her to pay attention. Being confused, upset, and angry, I tried to get the attention of my room-mate, with the same result. He didn’t react.

I wanted this to be a dream, and I kept saying to myself, "This has got to be a dream."

But I knew that it wasn't a dream. I became aware that strangely I felt more alert, more aware, more alive than I had ever felt in my entire life. All my senses were extremely acute. Everything felt tingly and alive. The floor was cool and my bare feet felt moist and clammy. This had to be real. I squeezed my fists and was amazed at how much I was feeling in my hands just by making a fist.

Then I heard my name. I heard, "Howard, Howard – come here."

Wondering, at first, where it was coming from, I discovered that it was originating in the doorway. There were different voices calling me.

I asked who they were, and they said, "We are here to take care of you. We will fix you up. Come with us."

Asking, again, who they were, I asked them if they were doctors and nurses.

They responded, "Quick, come see. You’ll find out."

As I asked them questions they gave evasive answers. They kept giving me a sense of urgency, insisting that I should step through the doorway.

With some reluctance I stepped into the hallway, and in the hallway I was in a fog, or a haze. It was a light-colored haze. It wasn’t a heavy haze. I could see my hand, for example, but the people who were calling me were 15 or 20 feet ahead, and I couldn’t see them clearly. They were more like silhouettes, or shapes, and as I moved toward them they backed off into the haze. As I tried to get close to them to identify them, they quickly withdrew deeper into the fog. So I had to follow into the fog deeper and deeper.

These strange beings kept urging me to come with them.

I repeatedly asked them where we were going, and they responded, "Hurry up, you’ll find out."

They wouldn't answer anything. The only response was insisting that I hurry up and follow them.

They told me repeatedly that my pain was meaningless and unnecessary. "Pain is bull****," they said.

I knew that we had been traveling for miles, but I occasionally had the strange ability to look back and see the hospital room. My body was still there lying motionless on the bed. My perspective at these times was as if I were floating above the room looking down. It seemed millions and millions of miles away. Looking back into the room, I saw my wife and my room-mate, and I decided they had not been able to help me so I would go with these people.

Walking for what seemed to be a considerable distance, these beings were all around me. They were leading me through the haze. I don’t know how long. There was a real sense of timelessness about the experience. In a real sense I am unaware of how long it was, but it felt like a long time – maybe even days or weeks.

As we traveled, the fog got thicker and darker, and the people began to change. At first they seemed rather playful and happy, but when we had covered some distance, a few of them began to get aggressive.

The more questioning and suspicious I was, the more antagonistic and rude and authoritarian they became. They began to make jokes about my bare rear end which wasn't covered by my hospital dicky and about how pathetic I was. I knew they were talking about me, but when I tried to find out exactly what they were saying they would say, "Shhhhh, he can hear you, he can hear you."

Then, others would seem to caution the aggressive ones. It seemed that I could hear them warn the aggressive ones to be careful or I would be frightened away.

Wondering what was happening, I continued to ask questions, and they repeatedly urged me to hurry and to stop asking questions. Feeling uneasy, especially since they continued to get aggressive, I considered returning, but I didn’t know how to get back. I was lost. There were no features that I could relate to. There was just the fog and a wet, clammy ground, and I had no sense of direction.

All my communication with them took place verbally just as ordinary human communication occurs. They didn't appear to know what I was thinking, and I didn't know what they were thinking. What was increasingly obvious was that they were liars and help was farther away the more I stayed with them.

Hours ago, I had hoped to die and end the torment of life. Now things were worse as I was forced by a mob of unfriendly and cruel people toward some unknown destination in the darkness. They began shouting and hurling insults at me, demanding that I hurry along. And they refused to answer any question.

Finally, I told them that I wouldn’t go any farther. At that time they changed completely. They became much more aggressive and insisted that I was going with them. A number of them began to push and shove me, and I responded by hitting back at them.

A wild orgy of frenzied taunting, screaming and hitting ensued. I fought like a wild man. All the while it was obvious that they were having great fun.

It seemed to be, almost, a game for them, with me as the center-piece of their amusement. My pain became their pleasure. They seemed to want to make me hurt – by clawing at me and biting me. Whenever I would get one off me, there were five more to replace the one.

By this time it was almost complete darkness, and I had the sense that instead of there being twenty or thirty, there were an innumerable host of them. Each one seemed set on coming in for the sport they got from hurting me.

My attempts to fight back only provoked greater merriment. They began to physically humiliate me in the most degrading ways. As I continued to fight on and on, I was aware that they weren't in any hurry to win. They were playing with me just as a cat plays with a mouse. Every new assault brought howls of cacophony. Then at some point, they began to tear off pieces of my flesh. To my horror I realized I was being taken apart and eaten alive, slowly, so that their entertainment would last as long a possible.

At no time did I ever have any sense that the beings who seduced and attacked me were anything other than human beings. The best way I can describe them is to think of the worst imaginable person stripped of every impulse to do good. Some of them seemed to be able to tell others what to do, but I had no sense of any structure or hierarchy in an organizational sense. They didn't appear to be controlled or directed by anyone. Basically they were a mob of beings totally driven by unbridled cruelty and passions.

During our struggle I noticed that they seemed to feel no pain. Other than that they appeared to possess no special non-human or super-human abilities.

Although during my initial experience with them I assumed that they were clothed, in our intimate physical contact I never felt any clothing whatsoever.

Fighting well and hard for a long time, ultimately I was spent. Lying there exhausted amongst them, they began to calm down since I was no longer the amusement that I had been. Most of the beings gave up in disappointment because I was no longer amusing, but a few still picked and gnawed at me and ridiculed me for no longer being any fun. By this time I had been pretty much taken apart. People were still picking at me, occasionally, and I just lay there all torn up, unable to resist.

Exactly what happened was ... and I’m not going to try and explain this. From inside of me I felt a voice, my voice, say, "Pray to God."

My mind responded to that, "I don’t pray. I don’t know how to pray."

This is a guy lying on the ground in the darkness surrounded by what appeared to be dozens if not hundreds and hundreds of vicious creatures who had just torn him up. The situation seemed utterly hopeless, and I seemed beyond any possible help whether I believed in God or not.

The voice again told me to pray to God. It was a dilemma since I didn’t know how. The voice told me a third time to pray to God.

I started saying things like, "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want ... God bless America" and anything else that seemed to have a religious connotation.

And these people went into a frenzy, as if I had thrown boiling oil all over them. They began yelling and screaming at me, telling me to quit, that there was no God, and no one could hear me. While they screamed and yelled obscenities, they also began backing away from me – as if I were poison. As they were retreating, they became more rabid, cursing and screaming that what I was saying was worthless and that I was a coward.

I screamed back at them, "Our Father who art in heaven," and similar ideas. This continued for some time until, suddenly, I was aware that they had left. It was dark, and I was alone yelling things that sounded churchy. It was pleasing to me that these churchy sayings had such an effect on those awful beings.

Lying there for a long time, I was in such a state of hopelessness, and blackness, and despair, that I had no way of measuring how long it was. I was just lying there in an unknown place – all torn and ripped. And I had no strength; it was all gone. It seemed as if I were sort of fading out, that any effort on my part would expend the last energy I had. My conscious sense was that I was perishing, or just sinking into the darkness.

"To appreciate heaven well it is good for a man to have some fifteen minutes of hell." - Will Carleton

http://www.near-death.com/storm.html

Oh brother. Christianity as a b-movie. The dumbing down is now complete.

Great stuff! Here's another.

"absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. it is unknown. "

You are turning logic on it's head. Every time I drop a ball, it falls down. You are asking me to assume that it will fall up at some point due to the "unknown unknowable".

"that still provides no reason why it should be assumed to go on indefinitely especially with dogmatism."

Nothing dogmatic about it. The moment you can provide me with a cause to your assumed and undocumented effect I'll be glad to listen. Until then you are talking about magic.

" not to mention these changes in DNA have yet to be demonstrated to add information to the genome. As opposed to tuning up/down existing information. (the loss of armor in the stickle back)"

Genetic "information" is contained in the sequence of the base pairs. Every single mutation is a change in information. There is no "direction" to mutations, only changes.

He was an avowed atheist and was hostile to every form of religion and those who practiced it. He often would use rage to control everyone around him and he didn’t find joy in anything. Anything that wasn’t seen, touched, or felt, he had no faith in.

He knew with certainty that the material world was the full extent of everything that was. He considered all belief systems associated with religion to be fantasies for people to deceive themselves with. Beyond what science said, there was nothing else.

more like silhouettes, or shapes, and as I moved toward them they backed off into the haze. As I tried to get close to them to identify them, they quickly withdrew deeper into the fog. So I had to follow into the fog deeper and deeper.

What was increasingly obvious was that they were liars and help was farther away the more I stayed with them.

They began shouting and hurling insults at me, demanding that I hurry along. And they refused to answer any question.

I think some of them are here .

Are you being observant of the Flying Spaghetti Monster's Commandments?

Though shalt have no main course before me.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's Alfredo.

Though shalt not over cook the pasta, for it is an abomination.

Thou shalt not anoint the pasta with Parmesan from a can, nor sauce form a jar.

"Blessed are they who have been touched by His Noodly Appendage."

" How do they know it would be a waste of time? We have millions of eye witness accounts. "

The day anecdotes becomes "scientific evidence" Big foot is fact. Actually the is more evidence of Big Foot, I have yet to see a hair, scat or a plaster case of the designers foot.

bad analogy, you suggest the ball will fall indefinitly, I am saying it has yet to be demostrated. you ask for the name of "ground" in which the ball will stop, I do not know said "ground" to DNA mutations.

change doesn't equal NEW information.

so far it has never been shown to increase information.

name the mechanism that stops computer viruses from mutating indefinitly.

balrog666 said: There is no "physical proof" of anything you claim.

Many folks that have a NDE aren't able to wear watches after their return.

From a website:

NDEers and Watches
After asking 27 NDEers if they wear a watch, about 80% said no. Most say they do not wear watches because they mysteriusly stop working. Some say their watches work fine when they don't wear them.

I originally read about this phenomenon in a Melvin Morse, M.D. book ("Transformed by the Light" page 142). I originally thought he had to be crazy when he wrote "One-fourth of a study population that mysteriously stops watches is astonishing, especially compared to the other groups we studied."

When I read that, I stopped reading his book. I thought he was being absurd if not lying. Up to that point, I had enjoyed his book. But now I'm a convert.

If you know of any NDEers, just ask them two non-leading questions: 1) Do you wear a watch? 2) Why not? The vast majority of NDEers are not aware of this phenomenon and they don't connect their watch problem with their NDE.

Morse says 4% of normal adults and 2% of out-of-body experiencers claim they make watches stop.

Chat room conversations about watches:

[Momma] One day when the fever was 105 - and I had two kids to take care of so of course I was palying doctor mom- My husband came to check on me and I told him that I must go and please take care of the kids
[Momma] When I laid my head soen I began going down a tunnel - It was a long drk tunnel - But when it ended I was in the most wonder light - Bright - Beautiful - But not just the color the felling!!
(Scott) uuummm do you wear a watch?
[Momma] Anyway after the light I was in a field -meadow -yellow flowers and I looked up and saw my mother
[Momma] No I don't wear a watch they won't keep time right
(Scott) have you ever heard of NDEers not being able to wear watches?
[Momma] Not really
[Momma] My digital alarm colock by my bed loses time on a regular basis too
(Scott) Dr. Melvin Morse says 25% of NDEer's watches will not keep time.
[Momma] I've had one watch that worked for a while and then the kids got ride of it
(Scott) What kind was it?
[Momma] battery operated - wind ups don't work at all I have a bunch of themn in the bottom of my jewlery box
(Scott) ave you tried other digital watches, or just one?
[Momma] I'll get a watch it stops working I replace the battery and it will work for a few days then the battery dies or it doen't keep time right
(Scott) you saw your momma, and . . .
[Momma] Any wasy I saw my mother (Who I thought couldn't go to heaven) and one of my husvands aunts who I only knew for about 2 years. I told my mother I was so happy to see her and how much I missed her and she tld me she missed me too and was sorry
Momma] Then my mother told me that I had to go back - I told her I didn't want to that it was beautiful here and I wanted to stay here with her. She told mne that I must go back because I have much much more to do - So needless to say I'm BACK
[Momma] She told me that she is always with me - In fact i've spoken with her at times.
[Jon] What did I miss? Watches?
(Scott) She doesn't wear a watch!
[Jon] Hmmmm. Thought so!

[cyn] Near death travels...
[cyn] just, sometimes with cases of NDE's, if experienced since youth, forms of astral projection takes place, unwillingly
(Scott) cyn, do you wear a watch?
[cyn] Just curious, for I have met a number of people in my work. Watch....no, they don't work properly for me! Why?
(Scott) NDEers seem to have trouble with them.
(Scott) Cyn, have you had an NDE?
[cyn] Well, I can not really say that I experienced one, however, an event at a young age changed my life
(Scott) "changed life" is a strong indicator
[Momma] what was the experience
[cyn] I was pulled under by an undertow in an ocean......and had to be stomach pumped and all of that....

[ankurs] well i had a car accident
[ankurs] taken to hospital
[ankurs] pronounced dead
[ankurs] then came back to life
(irrelevant stuff deleted)
(Scott) Bart, wanna bet on if ankurs wears a watch? ; )
(Scott) Ankurs, no disrespect intended, please continue, do you wear a watch?
[ankurs] saw a brite lite
[Bart] Light experience - I'll bet ankurs can't wear a watch.
[ankurs] i cant because they stop working in a few hours
[Flash7] ankurs, NDE peole usually can't wear mechanical watches.
(Scott) wow
[ankurs] dunno why
[ankurs] how cum
[Bart] because they stop....
(Scott) we don't know why they stop
[ankurs] how cum
[ankurs] o

Email Responses:

I had to give up wearing watches because they stop working after a few weeks or months. Got tired of buying new batteries!

& yes, I have never been able to keep a watch running for longer than about one year (perhaps they have been faulty or cheap watches???)

Add me to your watch problems. I can't wear them. And if you have a t.v. list, add me to that also/ and lights going on & off in the room list as well. .

Watches: ! ?
I have seven, they all work whilst left in the drawer or on my dressing table, they stop when worn for 6 months or so, but work fine when left off for a while. Prior to my NDE (1982) i wore a Divers watch continuously for years and a gold one for going out in the evenings on occasions. Both still work when not worn. I no longer wear a watch.

I have seen where they were talking about broken watches...mine never broke..they always stoped not long after I bought them!! Please don't tell me its the electric in my body either because when I was much younger..I had a watch for 2 years or more ( Guess what kind..lol--takes a licking, keeps on ticking). But now I can't keep one.

I have major problem with watches quitting on me for no apparent reason. I've never related it to the NDE and don't remember when it started. A watch will run for 6 mos to a year and then look like the battery went dead but a new battery doesn't work. The wind up watch I have has been repaired many times but never works for more than a few weeks so I gave up. I just buy cheap watches and throw them away.

Should it interest you, I received a battery operated watch for Christmas. I've been wearning it every day since. At 10:30 AM yesterday, it died, as expected. - Jon

I had to give up wearing watches, they stop working in a short time. - Brenda

>All my life, I could never wear watches on my arms because within the span of >from two days to two weeks, they would stop working. Brand new watches, and I >tend not to bang my arms around much so it couldn't be because I crushed >them. It wasn't the battery either because we would always change the battery >and the watch would still not work. - Emilie

PS..I can't wear a watch either - (sandie)

http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/watches.html

"ID now hitting Australia!"

HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The "evolutionaries" down under must be apoplectic.

Fell free to look up the words "anecdotes" and "gullible" for a real life view of a NDE.

"...Morse says 4% of normal adults and 2% of out-of-body experiencers claim they make watches stop...."

That seems to mean that an out of body experience helps watches to work! More normal folk have problems than OBEr's