BBC: Man shot dead by police on Tube ~~ Witness sees a bomb belt

BBC ^ | Friday, 22 July, 2005, 14:25 GMT 15:25 UK | staff

[BayouCoyote]

"misunderstanding"


Yep, we are supposed to die by their hands, not the other way around! Sorry CAIR..today you lose. Look forward to more misunderstandings! Specifically, that lard ass, Mr.Hooper.

[snugs]

I know many Londoners and they are a great bunch real Londoners and suspect they were not the ones that put the Mayor in. Some of the kindest and most loyal Brits come from London like this guy who is obviously a London dustman it would be interesting to see how he would react to your distasteful comment about his fellow Londoners.

[bernie_g]

I'm coming around to your point of view. Here's a security pundit arguing that same case persuasively.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4707781.stm

There's also a link to a video interviewing the guy whose eye-witness account of the 'arrest' has been so widely publcised.

[Sacajaweau]

I'm sure they locked down the house after he left...but they're looking for others...and they let him go as far as they could before he wiffed he was being followed.

[Grampa Dave]

Thanks bernie:

" Last Updated: Friday, 22 July, 2005, 14:07 GMT 15:07 UK

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Will police now shoot to kill?

The shooting happened in front of dozens of Tube passengers
A Muslim group has said it is concerned there is a new police "shoot to kill" policy in the UK following the shooting dead of a man in south London.
The Muslim Council of Britain said it was getting calls from Muslims who were "distressed" about the incident at Stockwell Tube station.

Roy Ramm, former Met Police specialist operations commander, said the rules for confronting potential suicide bombers had recently changed to "shoot to kill".

One terrorism expert said if the shooting was carried out by police - rather than special forces - it would represent a "pretty big departure" for the UK force.



Professor Michael Clarke, professor of defence studies at King's College London, said the officers who carried out the operation in south London were unlikely to be police.

'Head shot'



"These guys may have been some sort of plain clothes special forces," he said.

"To have bullets pumped into him like this suggests quite a lot about him and what the authorities, whoever they are, assumed about him.

"The fact that he was shot in this way strongly suggests that it was someone the authorities knew and suspected he was carrying explosives on him."

He added: "You don't shoot somebody five times if you think you might have made a mistake and may be able to arrest him."

Prof Clarke said police officers were not trained to carry out operations in this way. "

"Even Special Branch and SO19 (Scotland Yard's armed unit) are not trained to do this sort of thing.

"It's plausible that they were special forces or elements of special forces."

Thanks, this friend of my wife and mine, gets a little scary with some of his "predictions". The day after 7/7, he said that the ring leader/bomb builder probably had installed cell phones into the bombs carried by the now dead Jihadists. When he knew that they were situated, he speed dialed them to set off the bombs. He figured the guy on the bus had chickened out and was trying disarm the bomb.

I know what my side of our discussions will be today.:)

[Peter Libra]

Re Londoners.

Lived many years there myself. I find that usually a general crowd does not act in concert, when in hind sight they might have. There are many cases in which the armchair know-all press cite crowd inertia. Often there is only the one or even two persons who will intervene.

I was a security guard in a large mall in Canada. A two bit low life punk tried to drop kick me to oblivion. 300 watched. Only two men tried to help. Not to cry the blues, but I will wager there are some American security personel out there, had a similiar experience.

For laughs- sitting in the open fast food area,burly middle-aged men afterward, advised me just how THEY would have flattened the punk.

Perhaps there are certain cultures and different American States, where the crowd pitches in- have not heard of them though.

[GVnana]

the orders given to the SP Team were expanded to authorize the use of deadly force 'if those using them had reasonable grounds or believing an act was being committed or about to be committed which would endanger life or lives and if there was no other way of preventing that other than the use of firearms.' This was an important distinction, as a terrorist planning to set off a remote-controlled bomb could do so with the flick of a switch on a minaturized detonator. This meant, to an experienced operator, that any untoward movement - a hand moving to a pocket or bag - could indicate an attempt to set off the remote and detonate the bomb.

Wow. Was this guy shot by police or some kind of special tactics unit?

[Stellar Dendrite]

" Not exactly...he gets 72 women who look exactly like Helen Thomas and Hillary Clinton."

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bernie_g]

The tactics used today are pure SAS. The question is whether the shooter was serving SAS, ex SAS in a police anti-terror unit, or a cop trained by the SAS.

It's pretty clearly their style though, whatever his badge.

[GVnana]

For laughs- sitting in the open fast food area,burly middle-aged men afterward, advised me just how THEY would have flattened the punk.

Sounds like a few FR threads I've read lately!

[FYREDEUS]

BRAVO to them for "giving chase" but isn't it too bad that giving chase is ALL one can do when one lives in a country that enforces unilateral personal disarmament? Maybe armed and free Englishmen and women would have been able to do more than give chase...would he have been able to "evade" a 9mm so easily?

[bernie_g]

Do you really want a couple of dozen panicky commuters blasting away in a cross-fire? Sounds like a bad thing to me.

The guys who killed todays' creep absolutely knew what they were doing. They closed with him, grappled and dropped him, two of them held him down so their mate could empty a clip into him downwards, to avoid injuring innocent commuters.

[FYREDEUS]

TRIPLE barf

The Muslim Council of Britain needs to realize its in their own interest to become part of the solution ASAP before they learn how bad it will be for them to be seen as part of the problem, stop playing the victim and instead actively help British authorities toss out their community's 'bad apples'.

[highlander_UW]

And almost as tho' they're assuming the guy was a muslim too LOL

Good point, I haven't seen a released news piece stating he was muslim...it's as if the Islamic council is assuming terrorists are muslim. Guess I won't argue with them.

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

Yes, good job, but some of us are questioning what are the PC Laws that caused this to happen in a Train Station....see #73.

The politicians that have the police inhibited with the multiculturalism and other theologies, need to do something to reduce the hazards to the British people......

There truly is a War On Terror, and it is not in a Far AWAY Land.

[headsonpikes]

This is such a feel-good story!

Call me old-fashioned, but I just love happy endings.

[the OlLine Rebel]

"they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him."


If that's true, doesn't sound like the right way to handle it. Shooting while he's running would've been better IMO.


But I'm shedding Crocodile Tears over it.

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

Thanks....

*************************************************

Last Updated: Friday, 22 July, 2005, 14:07 GMT 15:07 UK

E-mail this to a friend

Printable version

Will police now shoot to kill?

The shooting happened in front of dozens of Tube passengers

A Muslim group has said it is concerned there is a new police "shoot to kill" policy in the UK following the shooting dead of a man in south London.

The Muslim Council of Britain said it was getting calls from Muslims who were "distressed" about the incident at Stockwell Tube station.

Roy Ramm, former Met Police specialist operations commander, said the rules for confronting potential suicide bombers had recently changed to "shoot to kill".

One terrorism expert said if the shooting was carried out by police - rather than special forces - it would represent a "pretty big departure" for the UK force.

Professor Michael Clarke, professor of defence studies at King's College London, said the officers who carried out the operation in south London were unlikely to be police.

'Head shot'

"These guys may have been some sort of plain clothes special forces," he said.

"To have bullets pumped into him like this suggests quite a lot about him and what the authorities, whoever they are, assumed about him.

I have just had one phone call saying, 'what if I was carrying a rucksack?' Inayat Bunglawala, Muslim Council of Britain

"The fact that he was shot in this way strongly suggests that it was someone the authorities knew and suspected he was carrying explosives on him."

He added: "You don't shoot somebody five times if you think you might have made a mistake and may be able to arrest him."

Prof Clarke said police officers were not trained to carry out operations in this way.

"Even Special Branch and SO19 (Scotland Yard's armed unit) are not trained to do this sort of thing.

"It's plausible that they were special forces or elements of special forces."

'They unloaded five shots'

Mr Ramm said the danger of shooting a suspected suicide bomber in the body was that it could detonate a bomb they were carrying on them.

"The fact is that when you're dealing with suicide bombers they only way you can stop them effectively - and protect yourself - is to try for a head-shot," he said.

Former government intelligence analyst Crispin Black agreed there was no other way of stopping someone who was an "immediate threat to life".

Muslims 'jumpy'

"It implies that the police knew who he was, it also implies that they considered him an immediate threat to life, under which circumstances they must try and kill somebody...you must shoot to kill."

But MCB has urged the police to explain why the man - said to be of Asian appearance - was shot dead.

Spokesman Inayat Bunglawala said Muslims he had spoken to this morning were "jumpy and nervous".

"I have just had one phone call saying, 'what if I was carrying a rucksack?'.

"There may well be reasons why the police felt it necessary to unload five shots into the man and shoot him dead, but they need to make those reasons clear," he said.

"We are getting phone calls from quite a lot of Muslims who are distressed about what may be a shoot to kill policy."

[Black Tooth]

Just got in. I thought I just heard it reported that the guy shot had nothing to do with the recent bombings. Is this true? Anyone else hear this??

[the OlLine Rebel]

"Perhaps there are certain cultures and different American States, where the crowd pitches in- have not heard of them though."

I think you're correct, most people sit back and watch or run away.

However, not long after 9/11 - that Fall - here in Baltimore I think some guy in a popular bar area tried to molest some girl or something like that. A whole crowd of people turned on him and pummelled him down the street.

My sister thought it was cuz "people aren't going to take any more" after the terrorist attacks. Maybe so, but I haven't heard such stories since!