Christian Adoption Agency Nixes Catholics

AP ^ | 07/15/05

[RaceBannon]

I would say you were wrong to do such things, for dead saints in Heaven are very humble people with absolutely NO ability to ask God to do anything for you.

YOU on the other hand, are responsible to speak to God directly.

To try to speak to anyone else is blasphemy, you are ascribing qualities that belong to God alone, to others, whether they be sints or angels.

[spunkets]

Re: John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day."

I'm not sure what you're missing. Please be specific if this doesn't answer the question. Jesus is telling those folks, that Abraham is watching effectively in real time, notes Abraham's joy and relays it. There's no valid reason to take this as a one time only event, or that Mary would have the same view of us now.

Someone might get complicated and say, that this is just related to the fact that, God knows everything before it happens. In that case though, Jesus is telling us that the effective situation for us, as far as prayer goes, is to look at the matter as a real time event. Abraham did indeed see Jesus's day and likewise David's day, ect...

[RaceBannon]

It is also tiresome to debate with you because you just ignore what is posted.

You start by telling me that Jesus Spoke Aramaic because everyone else did, then you tell me only some did...

What next?

All I did when I said Jesus spoke Hebrew was a personal opinion, and both of us agree Hebrew was A spoken language in Israel, didn't we?

So, since you yourself agree Hebrew was a spoken language then, why did you even start the argument?

Stop and think: When the languages were scattered at Babel, did Abrahm's father speak one of them?
Did Abrahm's sons speak the same language as Abrahm?
Did Isaac speak the same language?
Did Jacob speak the same language?
Did Moses speak the same language as his fathers?

Is there any reason to expect that the same language spoken of, written of in the Law in the Synagogues, was NOT spoken in Israel?

And due to the multilingual necessity due to centuries of conquest through Israel, wouldn't there still be one language that the Jews would call their own? Hebrew?

Why would Jesus speak, then, a language other than what was the language of the Bible itself, given to Israel, given Through Israel?

[RaceBannon]

Consequently, Jesus’ statement in Aramaic—"You are kepha and on this kepha I will build my Church"—should be decisive for our interpretation.

NO, NO, NO!< This is why diagraming sentences is taught in school.

The subject is STILL WHO DO MEN SAY THAT I AM.

I posted right from the start, several sections where THE ROCK is GOD, not a man!

I posted after that, many times, where JESUS IS THE ROCK, not a man!

In order for a RCC person to keep going back to the ROCK being a man, Peter, then you MUST ignore what the Bible says each time it speaks of God being our Rock, you must ignore what the Bible says when it calls God OUR ROCK, Our Deliverer.

You MUST ignore what the Bible says when Jesus is called our Chief Cornerstone...

Because if you dont ignore what it says, you have zero Biblical reason to ever connect ROCK with Peter, a sinful man whom Jesus CALLED SATAN immediately after!

[Mrs. Don-o]

Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of sweet fragrances, which are the prayers of God's faithful.

This represents the elders, the saints in heaven, offering to God the prayers of his faithful on earth.

My brother, surely you believe that we are all members of one Body, which is the Body of Christ. Over and over again, in I Corinthians, Romans, Colossians, St. Paul repeats his magnificent theme that the members of one Body all love one another, all rely on each other, all need each other and all communicate with each other.

Do you imagine that once you are in heaven, you are no longer a member of the Body of Christ? You are cut off? Or you do not love as much? Or you are no longer able to pray for your loved ones in heaven as you once did upon earth?

What is you belief, really? That while in heaven you love less? You pray less? You care less? Or you are less in communion with the Body of Christ, which includes all who are joined to Him (and you) on earth?

Surely life in heaven occasions a vast expansion of knowledge, love, and prayer, not a diminishment. Or do you think God says, "I don't listen to these people: they're dead"? If that's the case, it's a pretty poor heaven.

But thank God we are all part of the Body of Christ, even if some of us give the impression of "I don't need you."

You are my fellow Christian, and I need you.

[RaceBannon]

You are my fellow Christian, and I need you

No, You dont!

You need a great Saviour!

Do you honestly think that God needs the Elders to present Him with the prayers of the faithful? Now, for sure God tells us here that the Elders did such a thing, but do you really think that humans are as powerful as God in any way?

(Psa 56:8 KJV) Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: are they not in thy book?
(Psa 56:9 KJV) When I cry unto thee, then shall mine enemies turn back: this I know; for God is for me.

Who puts the tears of the Saints in a bottle? God does.

Name one instance in the Bible where ANYONE prayed to ANYONE else other than God? If the Elders then present the vial of prayers to God, from the faithful, then who must have collected them? Who were the prayers sent to?

To pray to anyone else ascribes the attributes of God to that other person/thing, and that is idolatry. You just tried to say that some person, place, or thing can hear prayers and can speak to God for you, or through that person.

(1 Tim 2:5 KJV) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

[street_lawyer]

Frank I'm wondering if you believe you have everlasting life which is assured because of your faith in the propitiatory death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

[Frank Sheed]

---Name one instance in the Bible where ANYONE prayed to ANYONE else other than God?---

Will do, Race, providing you first cite Scripture and verse detailing the precise books of the Bible that are to be included in the Canon of Scripture!

Cheers!
Frank

[RaceBannon]

Well, we can start with all the books of the Old Testament that were there CENTURIES before there was a RCC...

However, you can tell me which ones they voted on keeping, after all, if we owe the Bible to the RCC, surely they had to vote to keep some of the Old Testament and keep some out of it, right?

Right?

[Frank Sheed]

Please answer my question, Race. You rely solely on the Canon and on Sola Scriptura. So, where is the Canon defined in Scripture?

Frank

[Frank Sheed]

And that question relates to your total misunderstanding of the Trinity and your Arian leanings just how?

Frank

[BillyBoy]

>> Re: Uh, you are kidding right? Every branch of Christianity that exists today as an organized religion traces itself directly back to Catholicism. You are ignorant if you think Catholicism isn't Christianity. <<<
>> Sorry, you are totally ignorant on this point. My church/denomination pre-dates the Roman Catholic Church, having begun in AD 52.

Which church/denomination would that be? Catholicism dates back to St. Peter arriving in Rome to set up a church, appox. 42 A.D.

[RaceBannon]

Please answer my question, Frank, Where did the Jews get the Bible from without the RCC?

[Frank Sheed]

Sorry, Race. That is NOT how this works. I promised you in number 768 to cite passages that are commensurate with praying to the Saints IF you'd tell me where the Canon is defined in Scripture. You can't do that because it isn't (defined in Scripture) and you know that all too well.

You are a Marine, brother, so Semper Fi. I will give some things for you to ponder concering prayers to Saints courtesy of Patrick Madrid. I suggest you check out the new book by Dave Armstrong called "The Catholic Verses". It is on my must read list. You may wish to check it out.

---

Why Do Catholics Pray to Saints?
By Matt1618

One may point to 1 Timothy 2:5 as a proof text against anyone praying to Saints in heaven in order for them to pray for us on earth. After all, it does say:

“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”.

Doesn’t it say as clear as day here, that no one can get in-between man and God, and by praying to saints, are Catholics violating what it so clearly teaches here? Well, in the first place commons sense tells us that if the Catholic position violates it, so does the Protestant practice of praying for others. After all, Protestants as much as Catholics always intervene by praying not only for themselves, but other people, all the time. When one asks them to pray for them, Do they say to one another “How dare you pray for one another all, there is only one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ!!!” No, Protestants as well as Catholics intercede for others all the time, and it is especially urged in the Bible. When Catholics pray to Saints, they are only asking them to pray for them. Even the immediate context of 1 Timothy 2 shows the need for Christians to pray for others, exactly as Catholicism teaches. Let us look at the immediately preceding verses of 1 Tim. 2:

1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,
2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
3This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

So in the immediate context Paul urges people to pray for others. It is good and pleasing to God that people intercede on the behalf of others. So obviously this text does not mean people should not be able to intercede for others. When we pray to Saints, we are only asking them to pray for us. Next, can Saints pray for us in heaven? What does the bible say?

Are there any witnesses in heaven of us? Paul tells us:

Hebrews 12:1 - Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.

Do we come only to God or do we also come to the assembly of Saints in heaven as well?

Hebrews 12:22 But YE ARE COME UNTO mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 12:23 To the general assembly and CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, AND TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.

Paul says yes.
He says we come directly not only to God, but to an assembly of Saints in heaven (The just men made perfect) exactly in the context of Jesus being the mediator!. Are we supposed to ignore them? The Bible says no!! Jesus is indeed the one and unique mediator. However, it is indeed him as a mediator, that makes all other mediation possible.

After all, Jesus is the supreme judge (John 5:27, 9:39; Rom. 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1), yet Christians are called to share in Christ’s judgeship. They will be judges in heaven, even judging the angels (Mt. 19:28; Luke 22:30; 1 Cor. 6:2-3). Jesus is the king of the universe (Mk. 15:32; 1 Tim. 1:17, 6:15, Rev. 15:3, 17:14, 19:16), but he shares his kingship with all Christians, who in heaven will wear crowns, sit on thrones, and reign as kings alongside Jesus (Rev. 4:4, 10) – but will always be subordinate to him. Notice the promises that God makes (Rev. 3:21):

I will give the victor the right to sit with me on my throne as I myself first won the victory and sit with my Father on his throne.

Jesus is the one and only shepherd of the flock the Chruch (John 10:16), yet in a subordinate way he shares his shepherdhood in a subordinate way with others, beginning with Peter (John 21:15-17) and extends it later to others (Eph. 4:11).Pat Madrid, Any Friend of God is a Friend of Mine , Basilica Press, 1996, pages 58, 59.

Thus, in the same way that Christ is unique and the source of all these things, he still uses people to in a subordinate way to share in his work.

Do the saints pray in heaven? The book of Revelation tells us:

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the PRAYERS OF SAINTS.

Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with THE PRAYERS OF ALL SAINTS upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Obviously they do pray, and as we saw in Hebrews we come to these saints, who we see intercede for us.

Is there more evidence that the Saints are aware of what is going on at earth, and do they ask for justice?:

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Revelation 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city! 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 18:20 Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

So we have further evidence that the Saints in heaven are aware of what is going on in earth, and they specifically pray for things that go on in earth. We must remember that Saints in heaven are not bound by time and space as we are. In eternity, 1 John 3:2 tells us:

Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

There is only one body, the Church. The church is not one church in heaven as opposed to one church on earth. The one church is intimately connected with each other (remember the image of the vine and the branches in John 15). And those in heaven are just men made perfect. As the body is called to love each other, are the saints in heaven, even though they are aware of what is going on in earth, according to scripture just given, careless as to what is going on in the lives of those on earth? Of course not!!! Christ calls perfected people to love the rest of the body. I can be confident that they will intercede for those on earth. What does it profit? James explains:

James 5:16 “The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” Those in heaven are perfectly righteous, and their prayers are efficacious. How can one ignore them?

Why can’t I just say, I don’t need those Saints in heaven to pray for us, I can go directly to God. (BTW, Catholics also do pray directly to God.) Why can’t I say I really don’t need the rest of the Church? What does Paul say?

1 Cor. 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many. 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 12:17 If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling? 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 12:19 And if they were all one member, where [were] the body? 12:20 But now [are they] many members, yet but one body. 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

As an eye, I cannot say to the hand, I do not need you. However, those who are against praying to the saints, do exactly that by neglecting the rest of the body of Christ.

For a more in-depth discussion of the issue of praying to Saints, I suggest you get the book, “Any Friend of God’s is a Friend of Mine,” by Pat Madrid.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Spunkets,

Thank you. I wasn't sure what you meant.

OK. Actually, it says abraham rejoiced (past tense) at the thought of seeing Messiah's day. He will in the Millenial Kingdom. Not now. So I don't believe you are accurate in how you read this passage. No. Abraham is not watching now. Nothing says he is currently. So no, I don't believe this is a valid foundation for saying Mary could also do it.

Again, I appreciate your tone and have enjoyed interacting with you - even though we disagree.

best, ampu

[street_lawyer]

I asked: Frank I'm wondering if you believe you have everlasting life which is assured because of your faith in the propitiatory death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

You replied: And that question relates to your total misunderstanding of the Trinity and your Arian leanings just how?

I take it as a "no".

[Frank Sheed]

You stated: "I agree that Mary the mother of Jesus, as opposed to the mother of God, since God always was and always will be, was a very special person."

That is a repackage of the Arian Heresy as I pointed out just above. I also described the essence of the Trinity as best one can in 50 words or less [and who is only a 'creature' trying to understand the total mystery of the Divine.]

What you construe by my reply or failure to give one is "apologetics judo." I asked a question and you are deflecting my attention to "Hey look! There's a fly on the wall!"

The issue is, do you believe that Mary is the Mother of God? A simple yes or no will suffice. That is your reply to which I initially responded.

[street_lawyer]

Remember that God loves you and wants to save you and share everlasting life with you in Heaven.

Philippians 4:6-8 (New International Version)
6Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
8Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

John 3: 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[h]

[RaceBannon]

Sorry, Frank, but that is not how it works.

Unless you can show me from the Bible that it is ok to pray to dead humans, you have no argument.

This is a Biblical argument, not a RCC one.

Since the RCC does not teach the Biblical pattern of prayer, it is not Biblical.

NO ONE in the Bible prayed to a dead person.

Men and Women prayed to God.

You must show me where, in the Bible, people prayed to dead people.

I refuse to read anything from anyone that calls itself authoritative and condones prayers to or through dead people.

That is heresy, that is blasphemy, that is against the simple teachings of the Bible.

And you still havent answered my questions yet.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Will they make an exception if a Catholic promises to name their kid "Skeeter" or "Bubba"? Unfriggin-believable.

Fundamentalism's "political allies against Liberal elitism," ladies and gentlemen!

Hey, not everyone can be an intellectual like all those billions of illiterate medieval peasants, you know!