Posted on 07/15/2005 11:29:25 AM PDT by nypokerface
JACKSON, Miss. - A Christian adoption agency that receives money from Choose Life license plate fees said it does not place children with Roman Catholic couples because their religion conflicts with the agency's "Statement of Faith."
Bethany Christian Services stated the policy in a letter to a Jackson couple this month, and another Mississippi couple said they were rejected for the same reason last year.
"It has been our understanding that Catholicism does not agree with our Statement of Faith," Bethany director Karen Stewart wrote. "Our practice to not accept applications from Catholics was an effort to be good stewards of an adoptive applicant's time, money and emotional energy."
Sandy and Robert Steadman, who learned of Bethany's decision in a July 8 letter, said their priest told them the faith statement did not conflict with Catholic teaching.
Loria Williams of nearby Ridgeland said she and her husband, Wes, had a similar experience when they started to pursue an adoption in September 2004.
"I can't believe an agency that's nationwide would act like this," Loria Williams said. "There was an agency who was Christian based but wasn't willing to help people across the board."
The agency is based in Grand Rapids, Mich., and has offices in 30 states, including three in Mississippi. Its Web site does not refer to any specific branch of Christianity.
Stewart told the Jackson Clarion-Ledger that the board will review its policy, but she didn't specify which aspects will be addressed.
The Web site says all Bethany staff and adoptive applicants personally agree with the faith statement, which describes belief in the Christian Church and the Scripture.
"As the Savior, Jesus takes away the sins of the world," the statement says in part. "Jesus is the one in whom we are called to put our hope, our only hope for forgiveness of sin and for reconciliation with God and with one another."
Sandy Steadman said she was hurt and disappointed that Bethany received funds from the Choose Life car license plates. "I know of a lot of Catholics who get those tags," she said.
She added: "If it's OK to accept our money, it should be OK to open your home to us as a family."
Bethany is one of 24 adoption and pregnancy counseling centers in Mississippi that receives money from the sale of Choose Life tags, a special plate that motorists can obtain with an extra fee.
Of $244,000 generated by the sale of the tags in 2004, Bethany received $7,053, said Geraldine Gray, treasurer of Choose Life Mississippi, which distributes the money.
"It is troubling to me if they are discriminating based on only the Catholics," Gray said.
What a nice letter. It is always so worthwhile to see a person full of God quote verses from our beloved Scriptures and who loves the Lord, especially when they are not being rammed down my throat out of context.
Thanks for the correction on Romans 2. I was going from memory, which must be getting shorter! Romans, too, is one of my favorite books, esp. Ch 6 culminating in Ch 8, where nothing can stand in the way of God's love (again, not quoting, just memory!)
I like your use of Gal 2:20 - it is a good reminder to us that all of our good works come from Christ and the Spirit, and that we gradually transform. I think Phil 2:12-13 is the ultimate paradox of Christian faith regarding God and man "cooperating" together. Of course, there has to be cooperation, otherwise, there is no free will. I suppose what it ends up being is we say "yes" to move with God's graces (which rain down on the good and the evil - or if you like the parable of the sower, the word falls everywhere, but only on the good soil - the responsive soul - does the fruit come forth)
"Of course, and I also believe that scripture is God breathed. I do firmly believe as you do that the Bible contains the word of God. Where we differ obviously is the status of the Pope, who I love, admire and respect, but do not adhere to his teaching unless they conform to what scripture teaches."
Yes, I can imagine that the Pope will always be a source of "scandal" for some people. The pope is like any other man - he can respond to God's graces or not. Catholics believe he is guided by the Spirit in a special way only in a very limited manner - ex cathedra - speaking from the chair. I have found that the teachings of the Church have the ring of truth in them (even when not explicitly in the Bible) because of the promise that Christ made to send the Spirit of truth (I believe John 15,16? Sorry), and the explanations behind them make sense. Well, I don't want to bore you with my reasons...
If I might make one comment, to understand Catholics, try not to make a false dichotomy between the Church and Christ. The Church (people) are Christ's Body. He is the Head. Those who separate the two, I consider are decapitating Christ...
The main reason that I respond to posts such as yours is to try to correct any mistaken notions of Catholic teaching. To help explain the WHY we believe this or that. When we hear a rational reason, and are open to it, we then understand with our hearts. Only the Spirit can win conversions, so I just try to correct false impressions. If someone is less hostile to the Church, I feel good about it.
I would like to proceed on the reason why the Church looks at Mary as a Co-Redemptrix, but alas, I have babbled too long. I will try again to address that quickly.
I can say that the Catholic Church defines redemption two ways: Objective Redemption - the action completed by Christ, which, of course, required no help from anyone; Subjective Redemption - the act of dispering the results of Christ's salvific mystery to us 2000 years removed.
When we define redemption thusly, I hope that you can understand that Mary, or us, in a minor way, are involved in subjective redemption. Thus, we can be considered co-redeemers willingly acting as God's tool to bring His Word to others - to offer them the gift that God is willing to give. I think most people come to true conversion through other people and the Spirit - this is God's way in the OT and the NT - and it shouldn't be surprising that God continues to act through His people. If you recall my analogy of baking cookies, I hope that you will recall that God does not need us, but is happy to share His divine self with us (isn't that what love is - self giving?) If He is true to Himself, He will continue to act in this way and give of Himself, which means allowing us to share in the divine nature (1 Peter 3?. Sorry!)
Well, I have to go. I hope this has given you some food for thought on how Catholics look at things. Where your past experiences were probably ones of guilt and concentration on rituals (I understand this - I would be happy to privately share my own journey, as I fell away for nearly 20 years; - who knows, I might have become Protestant if approached at an opportune time), my new found knowledge of God's Love given through us and to us, taught to me by the Church, has given me joy and cause for praise, as well.
That God would ALLOW me to "make the cookies" with Him.
Brother in Christ
Catholics ARE Christians. SO are Orthodox, etc.
Do you hear the laughing?? Its coming from Tehran, Cairo, Riyahd, Mecca and Medina.
A Christian is someone who has repented of their sins and received the Lord in their heart by faith, recognizing there is nothing they can do to earn or work for their own salvation, that Jesus paid the entire penalty on the cross.
The RCC doctrine is against all that. RCC Doctrine teaches that a person must work to earn Salvation, that there is some sins that the penalty for them has to be worked off in purgatory, etc.
An individual RCC person might believe in the Biblical plan of salvation, but they would not be happy in the local RCC Church nor would they like what they keep hearing from the priests or laity for it would clash with what they read in the Bible more and more
Yes, an individual who attends a RCC Church can be a genuine Believer, but there is no way someone who holds to RCC Doctrine is, because RCC doctrine is against what the Bible teaches on almost all of the doctrines that have to do with Salvation, starting with "faith plus works", whether Jesus death on the Cross paid the entire penalty for sins, is Christianity the ONLY saving faith. (I was shocked to read in the Chatechism that Islam can save you if you are sincere! I am away for work or I would dig that one up, I was stunned.)
You can start by taking what it says on face value, using simple sentence diagraming you were taught in elementary school and high school.
No offence, but that is a serious comment. If it says something that is an anology, then read it as such. Jesus told us to eat His flesh, but He was standing there, were we to kill him? Jesus also said He was a Shepherd yet no sheep followed him around; that He was a Door, where was His handle or the hinges?
But if it clearly says something as a fact, like all your sins are paid for on the Cross, then they are, that Mary had other children, then she did; ...
ACtually I think it would be most authentic to read the Bible in it's original languages, understanding the ancient context in which is was written. That is the only way to have a substantive discussion about what the Bible really says. All translators are liars you know. No matter how true to the language you might try to be, you can't have objective study in the translation.
I'm not saying you don't have to be baptized, jo kus. I'm saying you need to be a believer and then be baptized. The bible itself says to believe and be baptized. By itself, it doesn't get you into heaven if you aren't a believer. Simple enough? I'm not being arrogant, my dear. You need to read what I said more carefully. It's a command from God to BELIEVE and BE BAPTIZED--not as an infant but as one who understands what baptism really means. I was baptized as an infant and once again, immersed in water, as a believer. When you are immersed in water, your sins are washed away but you MUST be a believer. You can't just go through it as a rite and think you've made it.
No, I do not remember Ratzinger. I do not feel I am incorrect. This is the way most protestants feel about it, at least the evangelical ones.
Perhaps God comes to you through baptism but you HAVE to be a believer in order for that to happen. He doesn't come to just anyone or everyone. JUST THE BELIEVERS! He does not give universal forgiveness of sins just because you once got baptized as a baby.
Well. At least we are discussing the same topic now.
Thank you for your post and quote from the Acts. I would like to humbly point you to verse 11:
"these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, WHETHER THOSE THING WERE SO."
They were more noble.
Why? Because they received the word. Whose word? Paul's.
What was his word? That Jesus was the Messiah. Are altar calls mentioned anywhere? Was his word "read the bible everyday to figure out how to worship God"? No. Does one get that sense? No. Is it likely that Paul was telling them to look in their Bibles to learn all of theology and how to act and worship? No.
What was Paul's Gospel? That Jesus is the Christ who was crucified and rose from the dead.
As to WHY they checked Scriptures, please note the caps of your quoted verse. To see whether Paul's claim was true. Could the writer had made it more clear?
As to me ignoring what was posted, etc. I will submit myself to anyone who chooses to read our posts to determine that. I will accept their judgment. If you feel that my personal example was not good enough for you, I humbly apologize - please point out the SPECIFIC citation so that I may learn not to do it again.
And finally, I ask that you pray for me, as I am doing the best that I can to act Christian. Being Catholic, I realize that I fall short of God's holiness. If I have been unsuccessful, one can only assume that I am not as open to the Lord's graces as I should. Thank you.
Regards
"A Christian is someone who has repented of their sins and received the Lord in their heart by faith, recognizing there is nothing they can do to earn or work for their own salvation, that Jesus paid the entire penalty on the cross"
Well said, friend.
"The RCC doctrine is against all that. RCC Doctrine teaches that a person must work to earn Salvation"
How sad. If you really had a problem with Catholic doctrine, you think you could at least accurately note it. It seems that you hate a strawman that you choose to call Roman Catholic Church. If I might make a suggestion, you might want to find out what Catholics REALLY believe. Then, make legitimate questions concerning what we believe, not what you think we believe.
"An individual RCC person might believe in the Biblical plan of salvation, but they would not be happy in the local RCC Church nor would they like what they keep hearing from the priests or laity for it would clash with what they read in the Bible more and more"
Your generalizations are false, of course. I happened to enjoy being Catholic, AND I read the Bible...
"I was shocked to read in the Chatechism that Islam can save you if you are sincere"
You misunderstood the author. Other religions PREPARE people for the Gospel, they DO NOT replace it, nor can they save! I hope that one sentence is clear enough. If Islam can make a person more reverant towards the one true God, bring him to pray daily, and be kind to his neighbor, it is preparing him for the Gospel. Truth exists to a degree in all religions, even Islam.
You do believe in Christ's words "You can do no good without me"? The Spirit blows where He will. The Spirit can work even within a godly Muslim. Even the first Christians recognized this (check Rom 2:14-16).
Regards
"I'm not saying you don't have to be baptized, jo kus. I'm saying you need to be a believer and then be baptized."
OK. Perhaps I misunderstood all the other posts where you mention that Baptism is not necessary, but only faith is Jesus is necessary.
Correct me if I am wrong. Are you then in disagreement with those Christians who baptize infants, then? So baptism IS necessary?
OK. Infant baptism. Let's look to the Scriptures first, since we both agree on them.
Jesus says "Leave the children alone, and don't try to keep them from coming to Me, because the kingdom of heaven is made up of people like this" Mt19:14
I don't find anything where Jesus says that infants are NOT to be baptized. In the Acts, there are several times where whole families are baptized. This COULD include infants, but it doesn't say one way or the other.
Since the Bible does not say specifically one way or the other (although Jesus hints at it - isn't Baptism how we come to Him?), we must look at comparison. Paul compares circumcision to baptism. Both are rites that bring people into the People of God, Israel. Paul certainly recognized this, being a former devout Jew. He knew, too, that infants were circumcised. The Lord Himself was circumcised at 8 days. As a result, He was considered a child of God, a member of His people. The sign of circumcision from Abraham's time up to the time of Christ. Why did the Jews conduct circumcision when the child didn't believe in God yet? The parents stood in proxy for the child's as yet undeveloped faith. It was understood that the child would be raised in the faith (as Catholic babies are, as well).
Circumcision was the precedent for infant baptism. And if you read the writings of some of the earliest Christians, you will see that at LEAST before 200 AD, they were baptizing infants. This is a practice that goes back to the first Christians.
"Perhaps God comes to you through baptism but you HAVE to be a believer in order for that to happen"
I don't agree. You are depending on a work to bring God to your heart. The Spirit blows where He will. "You can do no good without Me" Jesus says. God is somehow mysteriously present to all, (His graces rain on all, good and evil alike - or if you prefer the parable of the sower of the seed - his word falls on ALL ground) allowing them to do good IF they submit to His unknown presence. Again, Romans 2:14-16 clearly shows that God writes His Laws on even the Gentile's heart. Baptism is not required for the Spirit to come. However, it IS required to become an heir of Christ, a child of the Kingdom. We normally can only enter the Kingdom of Heaven through water and the Spirit.
"He does not give universal forgiveness of sins just because you once got baptized as a baby."
Does it scandalize you that God gives a gift freely? Does one have to earn a gift first?
Brother in Christ
More accurately put, those who hold to RCC doctrine are not Christian, they are Catholic.
And, yes, the more a person believes what the Bible says, and th more they try to examine what the RCC official doctrine is, the more uncomfortable they will be because they will see that if they stayed, they would be forced to admit they are staying in a formal religion that teaches many doctrines that disagree with the Bible.
Can you explain the correct doctrine of salvation to me, please? Can you also tell me how you know that to be correct?
But, these studies are the best on the net that i know of!
John 6:43-59
43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[d] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
It's pretty clear.
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