Posted on 07/15/2005 11:29:25 AM PDT by nypokerface
JACKSON, Miss. - A Christian adoption agency that receives money from Choose Life license plate fees said it does not place children with Roman Catholic couples because their religion conflicts with the agency's "Statement of Faith."
Bethany Christian Services stated the policy in a letter to a Jackson couple this month, and another Mississippi couple said they were rejected for the same reason last year.
"It has been our understanding that Catholicism does not agree with our Statement of Faith," Bethany director Karen Stewart wrote. "Our practice to not accept applications from Catholics was an effort to be good stewards of an adoptive applicant's time, money and emotional energy."
Sandy and Robert Steadman, who learned of Bethany's decision in a July 8 letter, said their priest told them the faith statement did not conflict with Catholic teaching.
Loria Williams of nearby Ridgeland said she and her husband, Wes, had a similar experience when they started to pursue an adoption in September 2004.
"I can't believe an agency that's nationwide would act like this," Loria Williams said. "There was an agency who was Christian based but wasn't willing to help people across the board."
The agency is based in Grand Rapids, Mich., and has offices in 30 states, including three in Mississippi. Its Web site does not refer to any specific branch of Christianity.
Stewart told the Jackson Clarion-Ledger that the board will review its policy, but she didn't specify which aspects will be addressed.
The Web site says all Bethany staff and adoptive applicants personally agree with the faith statement, which describes belief in the Christian Church and the Scripture.
"As the Savior, Jesus takes away the sins of the world," the statement says in part. "Jesus is the one in whom we are called to put our hope, our only hope for forgiveness of sin and for reconciliation with God and with one another."
Sandy Steadman said she was hurt and disappointed that Bethany received funds from the Choose Life car license plates. "I know of a lot of Catholics who get those tags," she said.
She added: "If it's OK to accept our money, it should be OK to open your home to us as a family."
Bethany is one of 24 adoption and pregnancy counseling centers in Mississippi that receives money from the sale of Choose Life tags, a special plate that motorists can obtain with an extra fee.
Of $244,000 generated by the sale of the tags in 2004, Bethany received $7,053, said Geraldine Gray, treasurer of Choose Life Mississippi, which distributes the money.
"It is troubling to me if they are discriminating based on only the Catholics," Gray said.
You're right. I think of the two of them as one sometimes since they're part of the trinity. Thanks for correcting me.
BUT, Jesus is the ONLY one who can ANSWER prayer, no saints, no humans can do that.
Sorry, but baptism does NOT make you a Christian. What you do with Jesus Christ is the deciding factor. My pastor, who was Catholic all his life, became born again and left the church. He said when he found out that his sins were forgiven and he didn't have to worry about falling in and out of grace, it gave him such relief. You need to read the Bible yourself, if you don't already, and see what Jesus has to say. I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIGHT. NO MAN COMMETH TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME. HE wants US to make the decision to ask Him into our lives. We don't get there by baptism alone. We must be saved AND baptized, for sure, but to be baptized as an infant doesn't do the job. It's a time to set apart a child for God, but it doesn't save anyone, regardless what your teachings have been.
I'm sorry that you've been hurt by these groups. Catholic beliefs ARE different from our beliefs and people need to understand that going into a group like that. We don't pray to saints, only to the Lord Himself. Perhaps that's one of the reasons? I do wish we had more unity between us as Christians.
Well Race, you've certainly been very busy.
What is your fascination with having things written down? You live traditions that are not written down, am I not correct? There are particular ways or habits that you have, correct? Are they written down? Have you recently written down how you eat your food? If it is not written down, how do we know you ever eat food? That is the direction your questioning leads...
Here is something interesting that I hope you actually read and reflect on...
A gentleman came to the Egyptian king. He taught this ruler about various arts he had invented and especially about the art of writing that he had thought up. In praise of his invention, he said to the king...
"This knowledge, O King, will make the Egyptians more wise and better able to remember things; for it has been invented as an aid to the memory as well as for wisdom"
But the king was not impressed. On the contrary, he foresaw as the result of the art of writing that...
"This will bring forgetfulness into men's souls...through the neglect of remembering, in that by trusting in writing they will draw rememberance from without...and not from within, from their own selves. You have not, therefore, invented a means of remembering but of recording, and you pass on to your pupils only the appearance of wisdom, not the thing itself. For they are people who hear much without learning anything and will therefore think themselves very knowledgeable, since in general they are ignorant, and they are people who are difficult to deal with, in that they are apparently wise but not truly so.
Phaedrus, Plato - recording a conversation of Socrates.
A modern day equivalent would be the TV. We are overwhelmed with "knowledge", which makes us think we are knowledgeable - when it is quite obvious that on the deeper, more profound subjects, most people are clueless.
Plato is not rejecting writing, but a loss of reality.
You, my friend, refuse to understand the concept that "the Church is the pillar of truth". Any traditions passed down by Paul were strictly Christian traditions. Timothy already received Jewish traditions from his mother and grandmother! Why would Paul need to pass on such traditions? Why make note of that? No. You are incorrect. The traditions passed onto Timothy were the same ones passed on to HIS successors and so forth. Considering this claim is 2000 years old, I believe the duty is with you to prove that this unwritten tradition is no longer adhered to. Common sense would dictate that if it was not, you would have had a multitude of various, independent churches arising from the various local traditions that would contradict other traditions of other churches. This is not within the writings of the Early Church Fathers, such as Justin and Irenaeus, Tertullian and Origen, Clement of Alexander, Athanasius, and so on up to the present day.
Traditions become written down when people decide for themselves that they know better than the pillar of truth on how to worship God.
The problem with your point of view is that you don't even realize how much you have taken from the Catholic Church (such as the Scriptures and the proclamation of Christ), and added in your own beliefs that suited your own needs.
A faith we can decide for ourselves is no faith at all. (then Cardinal Ratzinger - "Truth and Tolerance")
Regards
"I do wish we had more unity between us as Christians."
The door is always open to you here.
God desires that all men be saved and come to the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.
The Church is the pillar and foundation of the TRUTH.
Only within the Catholic Church can you possess the fullness of the truth that we will receive here on earth.
Brother in Christ
"Sorry, but baptism does NOT make you a Christian"
I will have to respectfully disagree with you.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven" (John 3:5)
We cannot be a member of the Kingdom, the Body of Christ, the Church, the people of God, without Baptism.
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching thtem to observe all that I have commanded.(Mat 28:18-19) "The one who believes and is baptized will be saved".(Mark 16:16)
Jesus, upon leaving the earth, gives a command to baptize in order to make someone a disciple.
"Now when they (Jews) heard this (Peter's speech after Pentecost), they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and to the other apostles 'brothers what should we do?' Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (see John 3:5 above) (Acts 2:37,38)
Peter continues Jesus' command, baptizing Jews and others into the Church.
"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore, we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in the newness of life" (Romans 6:3,4)
"He (Jesus) saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by grace, we might BECOME HEIRS according to the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:6,7)
Paul says we must be baptized into the Paschal Mystery, the death and resurrection of Christ, to be raised up with Him. We become heirs of the promise, children of God, through the waters of baptism (just as the Jews became God's people through circumcision)
"God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of hte ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. And Baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you..." (1 Peter 3:21,22)
Peter says that only one who is baptized, one who enters the "ark", the Church, can be saved.
Now. This is all preliminary. This gives us initial justification. As you have said, it is up to us to respond in faith as seen through the actions of our lives.
As to your pastor, he has made the same mistake as Luther. It brings about presumption, which Paul warns about in 1 Corinthians 10. God realizes we falter. Often. In His love, He offers us a way to come back, through the sacrament of Confession. We do not live in guilt. It is a shame that your pastor misunderstood the idea of God continually opening His arms to His people (read the OT...)
"You need to read the Bible yourself, if you don't already, and see what Jesus has to say"
I do, but there are a number of other writings that I also read. The Bible alone is NOT Christ's way to Him. Don't you think He would have mentioned that if it was so important?
"We don't get there by baptism alone. We must be saved AND baptized, for sure, but to be baptized as an infant doesn't do the job."
In one sense, you are correct. In another, you are wrong.
First, Baptism, given to an infant, is the greatest sign of God's gratuitious action to us. It is a gift that the infant can never merit. Yet, as God offers salvation to the undeserving infant, so He offers it to us as well - freely. You misunderstand this sign.
Now, you are correct, that Baptism is only part of the plan of salvation. It brings us the first fruit, the Holy Spirit. It makes us heirs to the kingdom. However, it calls for a response. We must make a conversion (either later in life if baptized as an infant, or during the course of baptism if as an adult). We are saved through Baptism in the sense that we are made heirs to the Kingdom. HOWEVER, we can refuse our inheritance! We can give it up! WE ourselves can keep God's love from us. WE have free will, and God doesn't force us to be saved. So in one aspect, you are correct, salvation calls for a correct response.
Without Baptism, however, there is no salvation - there is no works-salvation. Without Christ, we cannot be saved.
"regardless what your teachings have been."
You are sounding like you think YOU are infallible, Mary...Are you ABSOLUTELY sure that you are correct and others are wrong? Are you willing to believe that you, a follower of Luther et al, 1500 years AFTER Christ, have it correctly, while the Church established by Christ, the pillar and foundation of Truth, is wrong?
Again, I will quote the then Cardinal Ratzinger.
A faith we decide for ourselves is not faith at all.
Brother in Christ
"(Acts 17:11 KJV) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
Again, taking things out of context. This refers to the Jews checking their Old Testament to see whether the Messiah whom they expected could be the man called Jesus Christ. They wondered about a suffering servant. Could He be the Christ? Or could He be divine?
They weren't checking their New Testaments (unwritten yet!) to decide on their ENTIRE belief structure. They were checking the validity of Paul's claims! They were NOT looking to see if a practice was in the OT Scriptures! Brother, where is the Eucharist in the OT? Yet, they were practicing it, if they were believers!!! How about that?!
I already gave you an example from Acts 15 where the Apostles went AGAINST written Scripture. No comment from you...
The Church is the pillar and foundation of the TRUTH.
Regards
I don't believe I'm wrong about my salvation or how to be saved. We can argue back and forth and quote all kinds of scripture, but we will never come to a point of agreement. I believe you do need to be baptized, but what of someone who makes a deathbed confession for Christ? Baptism IS necessary but it is NOT how you get SAVED. That is a personal choice. Then you need baptism, to seal it so to speak. Those who BELIEVE and are BAPTIZED--belief comes first. Babies can't believe. Those are differences in what we believe. Are you sure YOU are correct? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, my FRiend.
No, the Church is not the foundation of truth. The Bible is. I disagree heartily with what you believe about finding the fullness of truth in the Catholic church. I have found it in God's word and in the wisdom of my pastors.
Thanks, Race, for the explanation. Mxxx
God gives us many chances, but I do believe there will be a time in a non-believer when it will be too late. That's why the Bible says that TODAY is the acceptable day. Why wait? The older one gets, the tougher it is for them to come to that belief. Too jaded, perhaps? (not meant to be a pun but...) Love, Mxxx
"No, the Church is not the foundation of truth. The Bible is"
Where exactly does the Bible say "the Bible is the foundation of truth"?
Where did the Bible COME from? It was written by the People of God, both Testaments (people of God = Church)
The Bible ITSELF says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.
Are you arguing with the Scriptures from God???
Regards
"I don't believe I'm wrong about my salvation or how to be saved"
You don't sound so sure of yourself...
"I believe you do need to be baptized, but what of someone who makes a deathbed confession for Christ?"
If a person makes a sincere confession, believes, and is baptized, he can be saved (Romans 10:10). You are presuming that one must do particular good deeds and such to enter into heaven. If a person responds on His death bed to Christ, if this person at death's door finally excepts Christ as His Savior, do you think Christ is going to slam the door in the guy's face? No. He will be saved, but will first undergo some form of purgation, so as to be purified before God's presence.
You are forgetting God's freely given gift of salvation... Infant baptism expresses this truth of the faith very clearly. We cannot merit salvation. Later, this infant, as he matures, can confirm his faith (Confirmation), during a time in his life where he can intellectually accept Christ. But, again, you are forgetting that the Jews also allowed infants into the People of God. Babies were circumcised at 8 days. Did they decide they want to become Jews at that point? Same concept with infant baptism. It's a GIFT!
"are you sure I'm correct"
Yes. I believe that the Church is divinely guarded by the Spirit of truth and continues to teach the truth. I am merely explaining these teachings to you as revealed to me. They are not my own. Remember Ratzinger's quote on faith...
Regards
I'm very sure of myself. I KNOW I'm saved. I don't have to worry about falling in and out of God's grace because when I received Him into my heart, He took care of all my sin, past, present and future. NO, I do not presume ANYone can get into heaven by doing good works. No one gets into heaven except through faith in Jesus Christ. Period. Of course I know the one on his deathbed will be saved, even if he's not baptized. I was trying to get that point across to you. Baptism is a rite that Jesus wants us to go through but it's not baptism that gets you to heaven.
No, we don't merit salvation or anything else. It's God's gift to us THROUGH HIS SON. We can't earn it by doing good works. Many churches would like you to think it is, but it's not. Faith without works is dead as is works without faith.
Not quite....
James 2 (NIV)
Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
No, I'm arguing with YOU. God's written word came from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit through men and women of faith. The church may have put it all together, but the church didn't write it. When you talk about the church, I assume you mean catholic church. When I talk about 'church' I talk about the body of Christ, the true church.
"The church may have put it all together, but the church didn't write it."
I don't understand your forced distinction. What is the difference between "put it together" and "write it"?
They did both.
Regards
"I'm very sure of myself"
And you are wrong. I have given you multiple verses FROM Scripture that tell us that one must be baptized. Where does it say that we do not have to be baptized???
"Baptism is a rite that Jesus wants us to go through but it's not baptism that gets you to heaven"
Again, you are arguing AGAINST Scripture itself. John 3:5 says we MUST be baptized. It is not a "mere" ritual, as you would have me believe. GOD HIMSELF COMES TO ME THROUGH BAPTISM!!! Is that just a mere ritual???
Unless I am born again through water AND the Holy Spirit, I cannot have eternal life! That is normative. That is written in God's Word. That is practiced by the Church on its first day of existence - Pentecost. The Spirit comes in a special way through Baptism, as the NT clearly shows. It is practiced and discussed throughout the Epistles. It is discussed in the Didache and the writings of the early bishops of the Church. It was practiced by the Church for hundreds of years. It is in the Nicene Creed.
This has been the practice of the Church for 2000 years. Only a few hundred years ago did a few people voice their own discontent with Baptism as a sacrament - an out to rid the need of priests, no doubt. Who are you to tell us that all of Christendom for one thousand years and more was wrong???
Thank God you came along and straightened this all out. Are you seeing the arrogance of your statement yet? Remember Ratzinger?
A faith we decide for ourselves is not faith at all.
Scripture and the practice of the Church has clearly revealed that you are incorrect.
Regards
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