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To: jo kus

Sorry, but baptism does NOT make you a Christian. What you do with Jesus Christ is the deciding factor. My pastor, who was Catholic all his life, became born again and left the church. He said when he found out that his sins were forgiven and he didn't have to worry about falling in and out of grace, it gave him such relief. You need to read the Bible yourself, if you don't already, and see what Jesus has to say. I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIGHT. NO MAN COMMETH TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME. HE wants US to make the decision to ask Him into our lives. We don't get there by baptism alone. We must be saved AND baptized, for sure, but to be baptized as an infant doesn't do the job. It's a time to set apart a child for God, but it doesn't save anyone, regardless what your teachings have been.


1,062 posted on 07/20/2005 8:27:39 AM PDT by Marysecretary (Thank you, Lord, for FOUR MORE YEARS!!!)
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To: Marysecretary

"Sorry, but baptism does NOT make you a Christian"

I will have to respectfully disagree with you.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven" (John 3:5)

We cannot be a member of the Kingdom, the Body of Christ, the Church, the people of God, without Baptism.

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching thtem to observe all that I have commanded.(Mat 28:18-19) "The one who believes and is baptized will be saved".(Mark 16:16)

Jesus, upon leaving the earth, gives a command to baptize in order to make someone a disciple.

"Now when they (Jews) heard this (Peter's speech after Pentecost), they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and to the other apostles 'brothers what should we do?' Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (see John 3:5 above) (Acts 2:37,38)

Peter continues Jesus' command, baptizing Jews and others into the Church.

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore, we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in the newness of life" (Romans 6:3,4)

"He (Jesus) saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by grace, we might BECOME HEIRS according to the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:6,7)

Paul says we must be baptized into the Paschal Mystery, the death and resurrection of Christ, to be raised up with Him. We become heirs of the promise, children of God, through the waters of baptism (just as the Jews became God's people through circumcision)

"God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of hte ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. And Baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you..." (1 Peter 3:21,22)

Peter says that only one who is baptized, one who enters the "ark", the Church, can be saved.

Now. This is all preliminary. This gives us initial justification. As you have said, it is up to us to respond in faith as seen through the actions of our lives.

As to your pastor, he has made the same mistake as Luther. It brings about presumption, which Paul warns about in 1 Corinthians 10. God realizes we falter. Often. In His love, He offers us a way to come back, through the sacrament of Confession. We do not live in guilt. It is a shame that your pastor misunderstood the idea of God continually opening His arms to His people (read the OT...)

"You need to read the Bible yourself, if you don't already, and see what Jesus has to say"

I do, but there are a number of other writings that I also read. The Bible alone is NOT Christ's way to Him. Don't you think He would have mentioned that if it was so important?

"We don't get there by baptism alone. We must be saved AND baptized, for sure, but to be baptized as an infant doesn't do the job."

In one sense, you are correct. In another, you are wrong.

First, Baptism, given to an infant, is the greatest sign of God's gratuitious action to us. It is a gift that the infant can never merit. Yet, as God offers salvation to the undeserving infant, so He offers it to us as well - freely. You misunderstand this sign.

Now, you are correct, that Baptism is only part of the plan of salvation. It brings us the first fruit, the Holy Spirit. It makes us heirs to the kingdom. However, it calls for a response. We must make a conversion (either later in life if baptized as an infant, or during the course of baptism if as an adult). We are saved through Baptism in the sense that we are made heirs to the Kingdom. HOWEVER, we can refuse our inheritance! We can give it up! WE ourselves can keep God's love from us. WE have free will, and God doesn't force us to be saved. So in one aspect, you are correct, salvation calls for a correct response.

Without Baptism, however, there is no salvation - there is no works-salvation. Without Christ, we cannot be saved.

"regardless what your teachings have been."

You are sounding like you think YOU are infallible, Mary...Are you ABSOLUTELY sure that you are correct and others are wrong? Are you willing to believe that you, a follower of Luther et al, 1500 years AFTER Christ, have it correctly, while the Church established by Christ, the pillar and foundation of Truth, is wrong?

Again, I will quote the then Cardinal Ratzinger.

A faith we decide for ourselves is not faith at all.

Brother in Christ


1,067 posted on 07/20/2005 10:25:48 AM PDT by jo kus
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