Posted on 07/14/2005 6:10:21 AM PDT by robowombat
Bias against Southerners misses the mark By RICHARD COX Published July 11, 2005
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Does prejudice exist in Pasco County, an area with a very diverse population and seemingly very progressive?
I am certain that African-Americans, Hispanics and people from other countries, the poor and homeless, as well as members of certain religious faiths, experience treatment different from the mainstream populace. However, I am a member of a minority who has experienced attitudes and reactions from many individuals who assume that I am intellectually and socially challenged.
A very large percentage of the population of New Port Richey in particular is from the Northeast. I personally like the outspokenness, mince-no-words attitude, the ability to criticize as well as accept criticism without being offended, that seems to represent the culture in which Northerners grew up.
My family members seem to have the disadvantage of being born and living most of our lives in the South, in our case, Tennessee. I grew up in Knoxville, a city that many people seem to associate only with the fanatical behavior of our college football fans, and my wife is from a small city near Chattanooga.
There still seems to be a stereotype that some people associate with Tennesseans. When those individuals heard the distinct accent of my wife, my stepdaughter, and myself, it seemed to conjure up that redneck image one might associate with the humor of Jeff Foxworthy and other Southern comedians. That image is of a culture of ignorant hillbillies (certainly due to inbreeding!), barefoot, living in a shack with no indoor plumbing (but certainly an outhouse in back), having a dog living under the front porch, and owning an overgrown lawn populated with broken-down, dilapidated automobiles. And, yes, we all chew tobacco and sit on the front porch swing playing the banjo. Everyone also flies a Confederate flag and reminisces about the War Between the States.
I first noticed this attitude when my stepdaughter, an honor student, came home from middle school several days in tears because several other students harassed her daily, calling her an ignorant redneck and hillbilly among other derogatory terms. My wife and I have experienced the sudden change in facial expressions from many when they hear our accent. They seem to associate our accent with ignorance, and speak in simpler terms so that we can understand what they are saying. Telephone conversations often produce the same reaction.
I beg to differ. Tennessee is the home of several major universities, four major metropolitan areas with all the drug and gang problems associated with other large cities, and the most visited national park in the United States. Oak Ridge, in the Knoxville area, probably has as high a percentage of residents with doctorate degrees as any city in the United States. Tennessee has a musical heritage equal to none, and it is not exclusively country or bluegrass genres. Many nationally prominent politicians are from my home state, including three former presidents.
Tennessee has produced many famous musicians, actors, scientists and other intellectual and talented natives.
Well, to set the story straight, rural areas of most states have their own populace and dwellings that approach this stereotype.
My wife and I grew up in your average suburban neighborhoods, we both graduated from major universities and had successful professional careers, and, to risk seeming boastful, are probably as intelligent and knowledgeable, if not more so, than the average American. Believe it or not, East Tennessee, the section of the state we are from, fervently supported the Union during the Civil War.
I have noticed in the Pasco Times notices of meetings for various groups from areas of the Northeast and from other countries. Perhaps Southerners in our area should form a similar group. With apologies to an African-American group with a similar title, we could call our group the NAASF, the National Association for the Advancement of Southern Folks, Pasco County Branch. I hope there are enough local Southern residents available to attract to our organization.
--Richard Cox, a retired middle school science teacher and department head, lives in New Port Richey
... I don't think the young lady ever figured out she'd been, in the modern vernacular, dissed in front of everyone.
That goes a long way to explaining why Northerners don't trust Southern courtliness. If it's hard to tell when you're being mocked or insulted, it pays to be wary.
Scott Fitzgerald wrote a story in which a Southern belle complains that the Middlewesterners she lived among were "canine" -- straightforward, unironic, dogged. Southerners, by contrast, were "feline": languid, nonchalant, ironic, and catty. So it's not surprising that people so different would fight like cats and dogs.
But the girl your ancestor dissed was also a recognizably Southern type, the flirtacious belle who's oblivious to the impression she really makes, so it's hard to generalize about these things. You can find acid-tongued and thick-headed people everywhere.
As a more general observation, I can't help noticing how often these threads start out: "They are such snobs. They think we're all stupid, bigoted, and crude," or words to that effect, and end by saying in essence, "The really crude, stupid, and bigoted people are in South Boston or Bensonhurst, New Haven or Bridgeport, Cleveland or Detroit."
People don't seem to get that they're doing just what they attack others for supposedly doing to them. It takes a while to realize that it's not about truth or justice or manners. People just want a chance to vent, whether to complain about unfair treatment or to treat others in the same manner.
Another thing is just how much Northerners have picked up on Southern cues in these matters. New Yorkers and Bostonians didn't invent terms like "redneck" or "White trash." Such expressions were used by some Southerners against other Southerners.
The association of some accents with negative characteristics is something you can see in both North and South. A pronounced "lower-class" Boston, New York or Philadelphia accent is a disadvantage in the upper circles of those cities, just as a back-country Southern accent will get you shown to the tradesmen's entrance in Atlanta or Montgomery or New Orleans.
Some Northerners (and some Southerners) may generalize from specific Southern country accents to all Southern accents, but they didn't invent those associations or characteristics. You have to look further South for that.
It's not that well-to-do Northerners didn't have insults for their poorer neighbors back home. They did. Or that they needed to learn condescension from Southerners. They didn't. It's just that class is an important part of what people are talking about, and it's often ignored. If someone has an accent that would get them thrown out of an Atlanta or Augusta country club, they shouldn't complain that Northern prejudice is the main problem.
Maybe the point is that it's not "they the oppressors versus I the oppressed." Each of us plays both roles. The Northerner who puts down Southerners, probably puts down other people with accents when he can get away with it, and is in turn looked down upon by others. The Southerner who complains about Northern animosity may face something similar from other Southerners, and dish it out to Northerners and other outsiders when he can get away with it. Acknowledging that might help these threads to make more sense and to more accurately reflect whatever it is that's going on.
"Southernors to this day have a love of their state like no other citizen of any other state does. But not of their country."
Of which I responded:
"This is likely the most ridiculous remark I've ever encountered by you, and I'm NOT a Southerner. Nor do I have any southern ancestors. Your reputation has dropped a notch in my book! Rabble from Pennsylvania."
And you responded with:
"Every southron fanatic on this site claims more loyalty to state than country."
You state that southerners don't love their country, not that they place State loyalties before country! You're changing the discussion mid-stream. Was your first statement in post 334 made in error? Did you really mean to state that, or was it a slip?
No, I'm stating that southerners place love of country no higher than second place. So how can you claim that southerners love their country like no other state when they place state above country?
Clear enough?
So true. The only term I recall growing up that even came close to 'redneck' was 'hick' for those living way up in north country of N.H. & Maine. 'Hillbilly' was the another term for the backward types living in the hills of the South.
If someone from the Northeast happens to be visiting or vacationing in a Southern state, displaying articles of clothing with anything printed about their particular home state, there is an automatic double standard among the ones in question.
Seriously. Thank you for your service.
Now, as for the Southerners who served with you as brothers in arms, was their service less praiseworthy than yours?
That's a very interesting observation and one with a grain of truth in it. All in all, a soild post.
ZING!!!
Over my head.
Pennsylvanian Deutsch/ Dunkerism for *When the caboose comes, the train has passed*
I see....like "Jeet?" is Southern for "Have you eaten yet?".
"Crime stats are what they are. Nobody is engaging in some conspiracy to make Atlanta's crime numbers look bad. According to these statistics, the ten lowest-crime metro areas in the US are all in the Northeast or California. Of the ten metro areas with the highest crime rates, 6 are in the South and none are in the Northeast. [As to the UCR and other surveys that base their data on crime reported by and to police agencies,] What's your point? If people tend to generally underreport crimes, what makes you think that Southerners are any less likely to do the same thing? In any event, crimes like murder don't really get underreported. Compare NYC to Atlanta or New Orleans and get back to us."
---The system can be gamed, and is. Why do you think so many race-related crimes happen? Why do you think so many drug-and-alcohol related crimes happen? The regional reporting is agenda driven, and that 6 of the worst are in the South and none are in the Northeast is largely a result of the complaint I've already made: that people in the Northeast don't even bother reporting crimes any more. But I will certainly laugh at your claims comparing NYC and then Atlanta and New Orleans. My argument is that Atlanta's too dumb to game the system. What makes you think New Orleans is so different? New Orleans' pols and cops are dumber than Atlanta's, if that's possible.
Some educational stats are purely objective- SAT numbers for incoming Freshmen. Others, such as reputation, are based on surveys of academics all over the country, including the South. Other than a few places like Duke or U of Virginia, the best American schools are in the Northeast, California and the Midwest.
---Some of them are, but even those are gamed. For instance, the SAT numbers reported by the Ivies are far more often than not the best of two (now three) scores on multiple exam dates. If you've been gaming the system for years, you have the advantage. And I have said before that reputation asssessments, coming from administrators and professors, certainly favor the Northeast. It's like the ratings for regional college football and basketball teams. The Big Ten, WAC and PAC start the season with an advantage because there are that many more voters sucking up to their squads.
"You obviously have no conception what NYC is like these days. If crime is as bad as you say it is, why are yuppies of all races moving to Harlem these days?"
---Gosh, I don't know, but maybe it's that Giuliani and Bloomberg weakened NYC unions, NYC prices have fallen as a result, NYC property taxes on smaller buildings have dropped, and NYC's a better place to live as a result of that.
Or maybe it's because they like living in Harlem near Clinton's office. Or maybe it's the excitement of living on the edge in a city that's perceived as a top terror target. Got me. But gentrification happens everywhere.
If I disagreed, I would encourage those who wanted to enlist to go to another state to enlist.
If I disagreed, I would encourage those who wanted to enlist to go to another state to enlist.
I wrote a long post here on FR right after Kerry lost the election explaining why he couldn't win a state south of the mason-dixon.
Do you have a link to that post?
I agree with all except this:
The food in the restaurants will be something he wouldn't slop hogs with back home.
Food in New York is fantastic.
Uncles and cousins from Oak Ridge bump!
NSL
take a looksee at who fights and dies disproportionately for America since 1865.
we.ve been over this before...and you know the answer.
the Southern White Boy that you so loathe
so quit lying for everyone and just get back to personal insults will ya?
No, it was not. But then I never ran across a fellow officer who did not consider his loyalty to be to his country first, and who was motivated to preserve, protect, and defend the U.S. Constitution and not some state constitution.
Wouldn't that be treason against your state since you are advocating opposition to her position?
I know what you have claimed. But like oh so many of your claims you are very, very thin on supporting documentation. So come up with some statistics.
Here's one...not that it will make any difference to your prejudice known to many here for years now.
"Young people ''say, 'What can you offer me that somebody else can't?' '' says Maj. Gen. Evan Gaddis, commander of Army recruiting. It's a question recruiters never used to hear in the South, where a military base is rarely farther than a few hours' drive. Southerners boast a rich military tradition, and Army statistics show that young men here are three times more likely to consider military service than those in the Northeast and twice as likely as youth in the Midwest and West. Which is why the apathy in this town is so striking. ?
from here: (a cursory google "southerners enlist more")
http://www.armedforcescareers.com/articles/article14.html
I'm out to dinner with my wife...we have a sitter...I can look more for you when I get back....that's google...GOOGLE.com
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